Kitchen sockets

[Cartboy52]

Hi folks,

A friend of mine is having a new kitchen installed shortly and needs a socket moving, because it is currently where the new oven will go.

She has had a electrician out today to quote for the job and he has told her that her consumer unit needs upgrading before he'll move the socket. The consumer unit has MCBs but no RCD - from what I can gather - I haven't seen it.

Does it really need upgrading? I know ground floor circuits need RCD protection now, but as this is not a new circuit, simply moving a socket, do you have to have the whole circuit and hence CU upgraded at the same time?

Cheers

 

[luminaire]

Being in a kitchen the work is notifiable, so it can't be ignored.
An alternative may be to use an RCBO for that circuit. (and give John D something to smile about)

 

[Cremeegg]

It may be that the earthing and/or bonding is not up to current standards; most reputable and consciencious electricians will not undertake any work even "just moving a socket" unless such are up to scratch. Certainly NICEIC & NAPIT require their members to take this approach.

Without seeing the consumer unit cannot really comment much further but it's very likely that whilst the unit is not up to modern standards it is not unsafe and would not automatically require changing.

 

[Cartboy52]

OK, I've seen the CU now.

It's an old 8 way Wylex which has been upgraded with plug-in MCBs.
I'm not sure that you can get RCBOs to fit these!

In that case, does it need changing for a kitchen socket to be moved?

Is it possible to install a seperate CU with RCD for the kitchen circuit (the kitchen is already on it's own circuit) and would this be a cheaper option, or is it best to ditch the old Wylex?

 

[Cremeegg]

From your description of the old (albeit upgraded) CU I think it unlikely that the earthing/bonding are up to modern standards. Assuming that the bonding needs upgrading I'd want the electrician to explain to me why I'd "need" a new CU. Yes, an electrician would nearly always recommend a change (can be a nice little earner) but without some poor test results it'd be difficult to substantiate the "it must be changed" stance.

Yes, an extra CU can be installed and the kitchen circuit moved onto that but again it should only be done if the earthing/bonding are up to standard and the existing supply is adequate.

Any chance of posting a picture so we can help with comments on the bonding at least at the CU?

 

[Cartboy52]

This is a close up of the CU

Here you can just about make out the main earth, just under the meter tails.

 

[ColJack]

I can make out an earth running into the wall so the bonding MAY be ok..

the CU is perfectly servicable albeit probably over the recomended 60A max load listed on the front..

it might be a good idea to upgrade at this point as there are no provisions for future additions and no RCD protection..

( do they make a plug in RCBO for these old wylex boards? )


I'm almost certain that this next coment will spark somewhat of a debate but I'm not even certain if it requires to be part P as it's not providing a new circuit or changing the circuit protection device if you move it yourself..

 

[JohnD]

there is no RCBO for the Wylex Standard. there is (was?) an add-on RCD fitting kit where you put the RCD adjacent to the CU and run wires in and out, but this is (was) ridiculously expensive, and more trouble than putting an ordinary stand-alone RCD in a small enclosure adjacent to the CU in the circuit.

The main earth looks to me like a pipe clamp on the cable sheath. i bet main bonding is not up to scratch.

The supplier should be asked to provide a new earthing point, preferably a PME. They might do it for nothing or they might charge £60 to £100 which will be money well spent. then an earth block could be used for all the main bonding and earth to CU(s) to be upgraded.

that old Wylex is not capable of supporting a modern cooer circuit, it is capped at 30A per circuit. I think a better solution would be to install a new CU with an RCBO in it for the kitchen sockets, and a suitable cooker circuit (and maybe a Freezer radial) so that the kitchen refit can be done to a good standard. A split-load is not required.

By using a big CU, there will be capacity available to migrate other circuits later, as and when the rest of the house is rewired or new circuits required. the extra cost of a large empty plastic box and some blanks is not great.

It will also need a 100A DP Main Switch and Henley.

If and when funds permit, move all the old circuits onto the new CU, or rewire them.

p.s. I hate to see G&Y tape used as sticky tape, especially on live cables. It should only be used to indicate Earthing.

 

[Adam_151]

If your in leicester then your DNO is probably central networks, in which case a PME terminal should cost you £75 if its available in your area (and it is normally in most urban areas)

(or they might decide to try and sweat an earth onto the sheath and give you a decent TN-S connection, but thats probably more work for them, so perhaps not!)

Anyhow, make sure you request an isolator when you call them, its normally FOC, but only fitted where requested

 

[Cartboy52]

It's a work colleague and she lives in Birmingham.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but the socket cannot simply be moved because -

1 - its in a kitchen and that means its notifiable.
2 - that means the circuit has to be tested -
3 - but it will fail because it's not on an RCD and the earth is not up to standard.
4 - an RCD cannot be fitted to the old wylex
5 - so a new consumer unit or additional consumer unit is needed and earthing improved.

 

[Cremeegg]

The socket can be moved but there are restrictions as in previous posts; but to answer your points
1) yes kitchen work is notifiable - cost anywhere from £50 to over £350 depending where you live; or nothing (apart from his time & materials) if a Part P registered sparks does the job.
2) yes - should be tested whether notifiable or not
3) need not fail the tests but will not comply with current regs if kitchen is in a position where socket is likely to supply equipment used outdoors and earthing is not up to current standard
4) I believe so as stated earlier
5) yes