New Kitchen, RCD question

[FrodoOne]

My Mum is getting a new kitchen to replace her +38 year-old one!!

She’s not wanting any sockets moving or any new circuits. There is an electric cooker switch already wired in but her current oven is gas which she will probably change to a new electric oven.

Her “consumer unit” is really old and I think still has clip-in fuses instead of MCB/MCCBs and definitely no RCD protection.

Obviously she’d be better off getting a new CU with RCD etc... if she’s putting an electric oven in BUT is it a regs requirement??

Thanks in advance

What I wanted to clarify was whether it needed a new CU IF none of the wiring changed, which I think has been answered so thank you all very much

Considering that it is your mother, I am somewhat surprised that you do not think it to be a good idea to take the opportunity at this time to install a CU with RCD or RCBO protection, preferably the latter.

From what I have read on this Forum, it seems that there is much less need "seen" for RCDs/RCBOs in the UK than in Australia.

You may be interested to read this comment from https://www.worksafe.qld.gov.au/for.../2017-bulletins/the-wiring-rules-are-changing, which comments on the AS/NZS 3000-2017 "Wiring Rules"
"The new Wiring Rules require safety switches on all final sub-circuits in domestic/residential installations. This includes fixed electrical equipment like cooktops, hot water systems and air conditioning units. The existing requirements for a maximum of three circuits per RCD, minimum two RCDs remain for domestic/residential electrical installations.
However, we recommend that each final sub circuit is protected by a separate safety switch (RCBO) to minimise loss of supply to multiple circuits. "

Of course, the above applies only to new or amended circuits.

However, in Queensland the buyer of any premises must install RCDs/RCBOs to meet current standards within three months of purchase.

 

[winston1]

Induction is far superior to gas, and every bit as responsive.

My gas tank froze over a couple of bad winters meaning that I couldn't cook.

Butane? Try Propane. On the UK mainland gas is piped in and does not freeze.

 

[conny]

Butane? Try Propane. On the UK mainland gas is piped in and does not freeze.

Not in rural areas. You have the choice of gas tank or oil tank, not mains unless you have £,sssss to have it installed from an outlying area.

 

[EFLImpudence]

From what I have read on this Forum, it seems that there is much less need "seen" for RCDs/RCBOs in the UK than in Australia.

Yes, do you disagree?

Several times it has been asked if anyone has experience of an incident where it could be said that an RCD had possibly saved someone - given the expenditure and extremely low number of electrocutions in the first place.

 

[Bon]

Considering that it is your mother, I am somewhat surprised that you do not think it to be a good idea to take the opportunity at this time to install a CU with RCD or RCBO protection, preferably the latter.

From what I have read on this Forum, it seems that there is much less need "seen" for RCDs/RCBOs in the UK than in Australia.

You may be interested to read this comment from https://www.worksafe.qld.gov.au/for.../2017-bulletins/the-wiring-rules-are-changing, which comments on the AS/NZS 3000-2017 "Wiring Rules"
"The new Wiring Rules require safety switches on all final sub-circuits in domestic/residential installations. This includes fixed electrical equipment like cooktops, hot water systems and air conditioning units. The existing requirements for a maximum of three circuits per RCD, minimum two RCDs remain for domestic/residential electrical installations.
However, we recommend that each final sub circuit is protected by a separate safety switch (RCBO) to minimise loss of supply to multiple circuits. "

Of course, the above applies only to new or amended circuits.

However, in Queensland the buyer of any premises must install RCDs/RCBOs to meet current standards within three months of purchase.

Thanks for your post. Of course if presented with an option that is safer, then in my opinion it is the best course of action (not just for my mother but anyone else’s too!)

The question was does it need to be done to comply with regs as my Mum’s first thought was “is this guy trying to pull a fast one?”

Installing a net above the house to catch falling pianos is undoubtedly more safe than not installing one, but (as far as I’m aware) doesn’t need to be done.

 

[AndyPRK]

I think the points here are

1. Fitting a new cooker doesn't warrant RCD protection.
2. RCD's are a good idea for socket circuits.
3. Kitchen fitters are very bad electricians. Should you want to upgrade the CU, get it done yourself with direct contact with electrician. Don't go via kitchen fitters.

 

[crystal ball]

Butane? Try Propane. On the UK mainland gas is piped in and does not freeze.

Quite a few properties near me have gas tanks

 

[crystal ball]

My in laws are in their 90s, still got a 3036 Wylex, I have thought about swapping it but they would be helpless if it nuisance tripped and we were away, I am letting sleeping dogs lie

 

[JohnW2]

Quite a few properties near me have gas tanks

I've got one! .. and I'm hardly in a wilderness - about 15 miles from Oxford.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

From what I have read on this Forum, it seems that there is much less need "seen" for RCDs/RCBOs in the UK than in Australia.

As EFLI has said, I have often asked the question (of the UK) and therefore perhaps ask the same of Australia ... how many (if any) Australians have you heard of who have suffered (and survived) an electric shock which caused an RCD trip? It is only any such people who may (but by no means certainly) have had their life saved by an RCD.

When one thinks of the enormous cost of installing tens of millions of RCDs, one has to ask (as I often do!) whether far more lives might not have been saved if all that money had been directed elsewhere (e.g. 'to road safety').

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

How many people have been saved by an RCD operating ?

One doesn't know because incidents where an RCD operated and saved a life ( or prevented a fire ) are not recorded. Only incidents where there was a death or serious injury are recorded.

 

[JohnW2]

How many people have been saved by an RCD operating ? One doesn't know because incidents where an RCD operated and saved a life ( or prevented a fire ) are not recorded. Only incidents where there was a death or serious injury are recorded.

Indeed.

However, as I said/implied, if the number of people who have survived electric shocks which caused an RCD to operate is (as I suspect) incredibly low, then the number of deaths due to electric shocks that have been prevented by RCDs must been even more incredibly low.

Except in otherwise faulty installations, it's unlikely that an RCD would prevent a fire, since the high currents usually need to start a fire ought to caus an OPD to operate.

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

the number of people who have survived electric shocks which caused an RCD to operate is (as I suspect) incredibly low,

They survived, no big deal, not going to be headline news are they.

 

[JohnW2]

They survived, no big deal, not going to be headline news are they.

Indeed not.

However, for what it's worth, for years I have been repeatedly asking many different groups of people (some pretty large) whether anyone has experienced, or knows or has heard of someone who has experienced, an electric shock which caused an RCD to trip but did not result in death - and I think I have so far only found one (and, if I recall, there was even something a bit 'uncertain' about that case).

Another thing, of course, is that, in the UK, the number of deaths resulting from electrocution (which is reasonably well recorded) was so relatively small even before RCDs started coming into wide use, that there was never much scope for a marked number of lives to be saved - particularly given that not all electrocutions will be of a type that an RCD could prevent (e.g. L-N shocks), and even some of the deaths that 'should' have been saved by an RCD won't have been saved.

There's always going go be someone who says that 'one death is one death too many', which is hard to argue with, but I think they need to think about the comparison between the number of UK domestic electrocutions with the number of deaths related to ladders or power tools, or even 'getting out of bed', before they say too much about the electrocutions.

Kind Regards, John

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

I think your scientific method is flawed. For example my son tripped the rcd and is still alive. In his case he replaced a GX53 with an LED equivalent. The led version had a metal back which could be touched with the lamp fully inserted and it seems was at mains potential.
So out of a sample of one, I have experience a potential live saving of at least one person. So 100% saving of life.

The original question, which *was* meaningful, was how many people died of electric shocks before rcds appeared. Because these *will* appear in statistics.