LV downlighters

[Delinquent]

Can you get LV downlighters that don't have specific wiring lengths between the fitting and the unit?

I'd like to fit a total of 9 downlighters, and have a convenient point to put the converters, in a boxed in area that I could fit a small access panel to for when it fails - but it's 4m from the furthest unit.

Could anyone tell me WHY they all seem to state that you shouldn't extend the leads?

 

[GaryMo]

I take it that you're talking about ELV (extra-low voltage) downlighters, rated at 12 volt?

It's purely down to voltage drop and the potential inability of the lamp to function correctly if the length is exceeded.

Why not purchase individual transformers so each downlighter has it's own transformer? That way you can locate them where you want them.

 

[Delinquent]

I take it that you're talking about ELV (extra-low voltage) downlighters, rated at 12 volt?

It's purely down to voltage drop and the potential inability of the lamp to function correctly if the length is exceeded.

Why not purchase individual transformers so each downlighter has it's own transformer? That way you can locate them where you want them.

I am indeed. Did wonder if voltage drop was the reason but I couldn't see it happening so discounted it!

I'm not overly keen on having them dotted about in the ceiling space - the rate of failure seems quite high and I've seen a couple of badly burned units. The accessible position I could fit them is very easy to fire-proof which would be my other aim.

Unless you / anyone can expand on the best brand / types / fitment methods / any other tips hints etc on ELV - if there are good solutions to getting ELV downlighters in a kitchen ceiling I'm all ears

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I am indeed. Did wonder if voltage drop was the reason but I couldn't see it happening so discounted it!

Why couldn't you see it happening?

A 50W ELV lamp draws over 4A - how is that not likely to generate significant voltage drop over a long thin cable?

I'm not overly keen on having them dotted about in the ceiling space

Don't blame you.

the rate of failure seems quite high and I've seen a couple of badly burned units.

See - you've almost talked yourself out of having them at all - just one more push, and...

any other tips hints etc on ELV

Yup - don't have them.

if there are good solutions to getting ELV downlighters in a kitchen ceiling I'm all ears

The best solution is to leave them in the showroom kitchen ceiling, and in yours fit something that works properly.

 

[Delinquent]

I am indeed. Did wonder if voltage drop was the reason but I couldn't see it happening so discounted it!

Why couldn't you see it happening?



A 50W ELV lamp draws over 4A - how is that not likely to generate significant voltage drop over a long thin cable?

Well I assumed anyone wanting to extend them would just use new cable, personally I'd use a bit of solid core 1.5mm, more than capable of handling it.

the rate of failure seems quite high and I've seen a couple of badly burned units.

See - you've almost talked yourself out of having them at all - just one more push, and...

any other tips hints etc on ELV

Yup - don't have them.

if there are good solutions to getting ELV downlighters in a kitchen ceiling I'm all ears

The best solution is to leave them in the showroom kitchen ceiling, and in yours fit something that works properly.

That's the problem though - what? Design is important to me, the whole area is clean, sharp lines and minimalist. bulbs hung from the ceiling offend me almost as much as long fluorescents bolted in industrial fittings - can't find anything else that'll provide minimal intrusion.

I was wondering if just having fluorescents on top of the cabinets with downlighters underneath would do it, but I'm not convinced and wouldn't fancy taking the ceiling down / floor up to recable if it turned out they didn't!

 

[Fuseblower]

Why use LV?

What's wrong with 230V downlighters?
NO transformer/converter to burn up or hide in enclosure etc. etc.

 

[GaryMo]

Why use LV?

What's wrong with 230V downlighters?

Same thing, 230V falls into the LV category

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Well I assumed anyone wanting to extend them would just use new cable, personally I'd use a bit of solid core 1.5mm, more than capable of handling it.

Yup - for 3m.

That's the problem though - what? Design is important to me, the whole area is clean, sharp lines and minimalist. bulbs hung from the ceiling offend me almost as much as long fluorescents bolted in industrial fittings - can't find anything else that'll provide minimal intrusion.

I did find some possibilities, as I have the same problem to solve. If I can find the list of websites I'll post it here...

Are you in either England or Wales, BTW?

 

[Delinquent]

That's the problem though - what? Design is important to me, the whole area is clean, sharp lines and minimalist. bulbs hung from the ceiling offend me almost as much as long fluorescents bolted in industrial fittings - can't find anything else that'll provide minimal intrusion.

I did find some possibilities, as I have the same problem to solve. If I can find the list of websites I'll post it here...

Are you in either England or Wales, BTW?

In South of England - would appreciate it if you do find those sites!

As for the question above about 230v downlighters, I view them as much the same as 12v ones. Only advantage (in this instance) with ELV is that because of the awkward space I'd be placing more than necessary, so I'd have gone for lower wattage 12v halogens to at least keep the running costs down a bit. The only 240v low wattage I've tried in the past have been rubbish.

 

[GaryMo]

If you use good quality transformers (one per fitting) and don't cover them with insulation then you'll be fine. I've fitted hundreds, if not thousands and don't get called back on a regular basis to change transformers.
The biggest problem with ELV seems to be the where the leads terminate at the lampholder, especially when people leave them on for hours on end.
I've not experienced that problem with LV (230v) downlighters though.

 

[RF Lighting]

230V DLs are horrid.

Stick with ELV.

Fit the transformer in the ceiling void next to the fitting.

Don't mess about mounting transformers remotely. There is no need. You are just over complicating things for the sake of it.

I've also fitted thousands like this. Many of them in commercial premisis which are left on for hours on end, and very very rartely see these fail.

Providing you don't buy the cheapest transformer you can find on ebay you'll be fine.

 

[hairyben]

if there are good solutions to getting ELV downlighters in a kitchen ceiling I'm all ears

The best solution is to leave them in the showroom kitchen ceiling, and in yours fit something that works properly.

do wot?

I've fitted thousands over the years, and probably changed about 4 transformers in that time. So say about a 0.1% failure rate.

I've also replace many many transformers, lampholders and fittings, 95% because the originals were cheap <rap, and about 5% cos people yank the connecter/lead/transformer forward then stuff the new lamp back so it's resting on the 200c reflection.

Don't play with cheap transformers- fit something decent, min 5 yr guarantee. don't bother with fireproof fittings, they overheat (evan when you do use the correct lamps), use open fittings and seperate fire hoods.

oh, and 230v downlights have a list of failings, from poor light output to low life expectancy, to high inrush/failure current that trips mcb's and trashes dimmers.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

In South of England.

You won't forget to request Building Regulations approval before installing the lights, will you.....

 

[ban-all-sheds]

do wot?

I've fitted thousands over the years, and probably changed about 4 transformers in that time. So say about a 0.1% failure rate.

I'm not talking about reliability.

Next time you fit some, add up the wattage and try to imagine how well the space would be lit, in terms of intensity and spread, by the same wattage of GLS lamps. Or significantly less wattage of surface mounted fluorescents.

Then you might understand what I meant by "work properly"....

 

[Delinquent]

BCO already know as there is a large extension being built that they are supervising.

do wot?

I've fitted thousands over the years, and probably changed about 4 transformers in that time. So say about a 0.1% failure rate.

I'm not talking about reliability.

Next time you fit some, add up the wattage and try to imagine how well the space would be lit, in terms of intensity and spread, by the same wattage of GLS lamps. Or significantly less wattage of surface mounted fluorescents.

Then you might understand what I meant by "work properly"....

That's the biggest issue with them for me, but failure records with one's I've used even when not cheap rubbish hasn't been great - unfortunately in part that is due to the electricity company seemingly unable to keep the house voltage below 250v, so the transformer is actually putting out nearer 13v than the ~11v they are noted as.

My Dad replaced all the switched mode transformers in his place with "proper" wire wound transformers for the same reason. Hasn't stopped the lamps blowing as obviously the output voltage is still high, but seems to have at least stopped the transformers blowing every few weeks!

Going to try a test with some fluorescents later to see how much light gets bounced about.