Wiring in LV lighting without using junction boxes

[mikhailfaradayski]

Hi RF,
agreed, o, lord of the luminare

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

do you believe that anything less than 'best possible' solution/job is the reserve of ignorant fools?

I believe that ignorance and foolishness may lead people into doing a poor job.

does that mean yes or no?

would you care to re-phrase into something that is less ambiguous?

So you believe that everyone who installs 50mm recessed downlights to provide general room illumination is fully aware of their limitations?

Nope

Do you believe that anyone who is planning to install 50mm recessed downlights to provide general room illumination and is not fully aware of their limitations be made aware of them?

yes

So you chose what you preferred against the best possible solution, whatever that may be?

No.

What did you do?

What are you hoping to establish with this sub-text about block-paved driveways?

oh, nothing, just curious about things.

Does that mean that you are ignorant?

Of some things yes, of course.

thats very self-critical of you. You shouldn't feel that you are ignorant simply because you lack awareness of a particular subject. Perhaps you should consider yourself simply 'unaware' instead

There is nobody in the world who is not ignorant of more things than he is knowledgeable about.

whoa there astro-captain, with that level of profundity i have to ask - have you been eating those mushrooms again?

birdeyes are goodies, but felt that you usually get better VFM from green finger as they come packaged in a greater quantity.

Scotch Bonnet are fun, when you use them in ignorance in a chilli recipe calling for "x red chillies".


Enjoy: http://www.hungrymonster.com/humor/Jokes.cfm?jid=386[/quote]
"......You could put a grenade in my mouth, pull the pin, and I wouldn't feel a thing. I've lost sight in one eye, and the world sounds like it is made of rushing water......"

 

[ban-all-sheds]

They provide instant bright light.

So do other forms of incandescent lighting.

They are infinately dimmable.

Actually they are not, if you don't want to damage the lamps.

They are aesthetically pleasing.

Some people think the same about stone cladding.

They give a good even spread of light.

Better than a GLS pendant?

They are cheap to buy and maintain.

IMO the best option would be to install mains DLs and fit CFL lamps instead of halogen lamps, which will have no problems regarding heat, and based on 6 downlighter lamps you would enjoy a SAVING of £156 before you have to buy replacement compact fluorescent lamps.

Lamp savings calculator

Now I am not saying that they are the best lighting soloution in all circumstances.

Why on earth not, if they provide instant bright light, and are infinitely dimmable, aesthetically pleasing, give a good even spread of light and are cheap to buy and maintain?

I have two fluorescent battens in my kitchen, and I doubt there is a better way to light a kitchen. I certainly wouldn't consider any other type of lighting in a commercial kitchen.

Why on earth not, if they provide instant bright light, and are infinitely dimmable, aesthetically pleasing, give a good even spread of light and are cheap to buy and maintain?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

does that mean yes or no?

Neither.

Do you believe that anyone who is planning to install 50mm recessed downlights to provide general room illumination and is not fully aware of their limitations be made aware of them?

yes

Good.

What did you do?

I chose what I have.

thats very self-critical of you. You shouldn't feel that you are ignorant simply because you lack awareness of a particular subject.

That's what the word ignorant means.

Perhaps you should consider yourself simply 'unaware' instead

My dictionary includes "lacking in awareness (of)" as one of the definitions of "ignorant".

 

[RF Lighting]

They provide instant bright light.

So do other forms of incandescent lighting.

Agreed

They are infinately dimmable.

Actually they are not, if you don't want to damage the lamps.

I have 5no. ELV downlighters in my bathroom, which are often dimmed. I have not had a single lamp fail in the eight years they have been installed.

They are aesthetically pleasing.

Some people think the same about stone cladding.

That is my opinion. I know you don't agree, but if I'm happy with them, that really is the only thing that matters as far as the aesthetics of them is concerned.

They give a good even spread of light.

Better than a GLS pendant?

If they have been properly designed and installed and the correct type of lampsave been used, then yes. My invitation for you to come to my house and see a room properly lit by ELV downlights still stands.

They are cheap to buy and maintain.

IMO the best option would be to install mains DLs and fit CFL lamps instead of halogen lamps, which will have no problems regarding heat, and based on 6 downlighter lamps you would enjoy a SAVING of £156 before you have to buy replacement compact fluorescent lamps.

Lamp savings calculator

I have never claimed they are the cheapest form of lighting to run.
(As a side note, I'm impressed that you found that quote)

Now I am not saying that they are the best lighting soloution in all circumstances.

Why on earth not, if they provide instant bright light, and are infinitely dimmable, aesthetically pleasing, give a good even spread of light and are cheap to buy and maintain?

I don't need my kitchen lights to be dimmed. I am also happy with the look of a fluorescent light fitting in my kitchen. It suits the environment, just as ELV downlighters suit a bathroom environment.

I have two fluorescent battens in my kitchen, and I doubt there is a better way to light a kitchen. I certainly wouldn't consider any other type of lighting in a commercial kitchen.

Why on earth not, if they provide instant bright light, and are infinitely dimmable, aesthetically pleasing, give a good even spread of light and are cheap to buy and maintain?

[/quote]

In a commercial kitchen, the need for instant start, aesthetics and ability to dim are not given the same priority in the design criteria for a commercial kitchen lighting scheme as it is in my domestic bathroom.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

does that mean yes or no?

Neither.

surpisingly non-commital of you, given your past statements.

Do you believe that anyone who is planning to install 50mm recessed downlights to provide general room illumination and is not fully aware of their limitations be made aware of them?

yes

Good.

I would generally temper my advice with good manners and refrain from trying to beat someone into submission on the subject, but i know this is not what you do.

What did you do?

I chose what I have.

But is it the 'best possible' solution?

thats very self-critical of you. You shouldn't feel that you are ignorant simply because you lack awareness of a particular subject.

That's what the word ignorant means.

In your opinion.

Perhaps you should consider yourself simply 'unaware' instead

My dictionary includes "lacking in awareness (of)" as one of the definitions of "ignorant".

thats one definition from one dictionary. Another definition of 'ignorant' is an 'imprecise personal insult', i might suggest that the general context of how you use the word would be this description. I predict that you will now attempt to disagree with this.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

surpisingly non-commital of you, given your past statements.

Are you talking about my answer of "neither" to your question "does that mean yes or no?"?

I would generally temper my advice with good manners and refrain from trying to beat someone into submission on the subject, but i know this is not what you do.

Actually you don't know that.

But is it the 'best possible' solution?

Define "best possible".

In your opinion.

And in the opinion of the people who write dictionaries.

Another definition of 'ignorant' is an 'imprecise personal insult',

In neither of my dictionaries (reasonably large single-volume Oxford Reference & Collins 21st Century, both reasonably recent) does that definition appear.

i might suggest that the general context of how you use the word would be this description.

You might suggest that, but to do so would be because you had decided to try to generate gratuitous conflict, because:

I predict that you will now attempt to disagree with this.

your prediction shows that you know that when I use the word "ignorant" I use it in a non-pejorative way to simply mean lacking in knowledge or awareness.

So it would be best if you did not suggest that I am insulting people when I tell them that they are ignorant.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

surpisingly non-commital of you, given your past statements.

Are you talking about my answer of "neither" to your question "does that mean yes or no?"?

whichever, feel free to discuss...

I would generally temper my advice with good manners and refrain from trying to beat someone into submission on the subject, but i know this is not what you do.

Actually you don't know that.

its a belief i have come to having read a lot of your posts.

But is it the 'best possible' solution?

Define "best possible".

Again, canvassing your opinion, what do you feel is the best possible solution?

In your opinion.

And in the opinion of the people who write dictionaries.

but not all of them

Another definition of 'ignorant' is an 'imprecise personal insult',

In neither of my dictionaries (reasonably large single-volume Oxford Reference & Collins 21st Century, both reasonably recent) does that definition appear.

get some different dictionaries, expand your knowledge. you might enjoy it.

i might suggest that the general context of how you use the word would be this description.

You might suggest that, but to do so would be because you had decided to try to generate gratuitous conflict, because:

I predict that you will now attempt to disagree with this.

your prediction shows that you know that when I use the word "ignorant" I use it in a non-pejorative way to simply mean lacking in knowledge or awareness.

you often go further and use ignorant along with other words like fool or worse. This would lead most people to think you were being insulting. Im glad that you are not, thats nice.

So it would be best if you did not suggest that I am insulting people when I tell them that they are ignorant.

im far from isolated in this point of view. If your intention is not to insult, but only to advise and educate, do you think the best possible way of dealing with that is by using the word ignorant?
There are other ways of conveying your point without the suggestion of insult, should you choose to find one. An articulate person like your good self would not find it taxing to find an alternative.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

its a belief i have come to having read a lot of your posts.

I can see how you might come to such an erroneous belief if you choose to ascribe erroneous meanings to the words I use.

Again, canvassing your opinion, what do you feel is the best possible solution?

Mine.

but not all of them

Even if all of them included "insult" as one of the definitions of "ignorant" that would not change the fact that all of them would also include the non-insulting meaning of lacking in knowledge.

get some different dictionaries, expand your knowledge. you might enjoy it.

Even if I got every dictionary in print that would not change the fact that all of them (except, I guess, dictionaries of insults) would also include the non-insulting meaning of lacking in knowledge.

you often go further and use ignorant along with other words like fool or worse.

It's difficult to respond to such vague assertions, but I have searched all of my posts for all 12 combinations of ignorant or ignorance or ignorantly and fool or fools or foolish or foolishness (not as phrases, just any post where I've used both words), and I found 6 (not including this reply), which is less than 0.03% of my current post count, so I would seriously question your use of the word "often".

im far from isolated in this point of view. If your intention is not to insult, but only to advise and educate, do you think the best possible way of dealing with that is by using the word ignorant?

The word means lacking in knowledge or awareness.

I am not going to restrict my vocabulary to exclude simple and common words just because some people are ignorant of their meaning.

There are other ways of conveying your point without the suggestion of insult, should you choose to find one.

And there are other ways to read what I write without choosing to ascribe pejorative definitions to words when there are equally common non-pejorative definitions which are perfectly valid given the context.

An articulate person like your good self would not find it taxing to find an alternative.

On the contrary - I would find it very taxing to have to restrict myself to only using words which could not be deliberately misinterpreted by people choosing to look for insults which are not there.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

its a belief i have come to having read a lot of your posts.

I can see how you might come to such an erroneous belief if you choose to ascribe erroneous meanings to the words I use.

its only your opinion that my belief is erroneous, which could be erroneous in itself.

Again, canvassing your opinion, what do you feel is the best possible solution?

Mine.

Whats you reasoning for this?

but not all of them

Even if all of them included "insult" as one of the definitions of "ignorant" that would not change the fact that all of them would also include the non-insulting meaning of lacking in knowledge.

We could go further than just the definition of a single word and apply a context. This would shed a different light on whether you intent is to insult or not.

get some different dictionaries, expand your knowledge. you might enjoy it.

Even if I got every dictionary in print that would not change the fact that all of them (except, I guess, dictionaries of insults) would also include the non-insulting meaning of lacking in knowledge.

So you agree with me that 'ignorant' can be applied with intent to be insulting.

you often go further and use ignorant along with other words like fool or worse.

It's difficult to respond to such vague assertions, but I have searched all of my posts for all 12 combinations of ignorant or ignorance or ignorantly and fool or fools or foolish or foolishness (not as phrases, just any post where I've used both words), and I found 6 (not including this reply), which is less than 0.03% of my current post count, so I would seriously question your use of the word "often".

There are many other words in your vocabulary which i grouped under 'worse' just to simplify things for you. Try searching all the permutations of insulting words. I would be interested to see what percentage that brings.

im far from isolated in this point of view. If your intention is not to insult, but only to advise and educate, do you think the best possible way of dealing with that is by using the word ignorant?

The word means lacking in knowledge or awareness.

I am not going to restrict my vocabulary to exclude simple and common words just because some people are ignorant of their meaning.

Quit the opposite, i would say that using new words would expand your vocabulary, not restrict it.

There are other ways of conveying your point without the suggestion of insult, should you choose to find one.

And there are other ways to read what I write without choosing to ascribe pejorative definitions to words when there are equally common non-pejorative definitions which are perfectly valid given the context.

Only valid if you feel that you are not insulting people. Which you have stated you are not. Which is nice

An articulate person like your good self would not find it taxing to find an alternative.

On the contrary - I would find it very taxing to have to restrict myself to only using words which could not be deliberately misinterpreted by people choosing to look for insults which are not there.

Why?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

its only your opinion that my belief is erroneous, which could be erroneous in itself.

You're forgetting that I have the advantage here.

You see I know what I mean by what I write - you are sat there having to look for meanings which give you an excuse to criticise me. So I know that when you choose to interpret "ignorant" as an insult you are wrong.

Whats you reasoning for this?

Nothing I can be *rsed to try and go through with you until you define what you mean by "best possible solution".

We could go further than just the definition of a single word and apply a context. This would shed a different light on whether you intent is to insult or not.

I refer you to my observation above concerning what I know and what you are guessing at.

So you agree with me that 'ignorant' can be applied with intent to be insulting.

I never disagreed.

But I fail to see why that means that I am to be criticised for using the word with one of its other non-insulting meanings.

In the dictionary/ies which you use, how far down the list of meanings do you have to read before you encounter one which says it's an insult?

There are many other words in your vocabulary which i grouped under 'worse' just to simplify things for you. Try searching all the permutations of insulting words. I would be interested to see what percentage that brings.

Do it yourself then, as you're interested.

Click.

But even if you do, that still won't prove that if I have called someone an ignorant ***************** that "ignorant" was in itself an insult.

Quit the opposite, i would say that using new words would expand your vocabulary, not restrict it.

Oh well, if you don't want to restrict it I'll carry on using "ignorant" then, but maybe add alternatives at times. How about "benighted"?

Only valid if you feel that you are not insulting people.

I know I'm not.

On the contrary - I would find it very taxing to have to restrict myself to only using words which could not be deliberately misinterpreted by people choosing to look for insults which are not there.

Why?

Because it would prevent me from using a word such as "ignorant" which is more efficient than "lacking in knowledge".

 

[RF Lighting]

Don't forget my post way back up the page

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

its only your opinion that my belief is erroneous, which could be erroneous in itself.

You're forgetting that I have the advantage here.

Thats an incorrect assumption.

You see I know what I mean by what I write - you are sat there having to look for meanings which give you an excuse to criticise me. So I know that when you choose to interpret "ignorant" as an insult you are wrong.

Its seems that you have adopted a defensive attitude here, im not critisising you, merely tring to find out why you say the things you do. Call it amateur psychological profiling if you will. Its done out of curiosity, not the desire to critisise or cause conflict. I am not talking about you insulting me, far from it. Again, just to re-iterate, it is purely done out of curiosity.

Whats you reasoning for this?

Nothing I can be *rsed to try and go through with you until you define what you mean by "best possible solution".

Your missing the point, its really you opinion/definition of the 'best possible' solution that i am interested in. But if you don't want to answer or can't answer, thats fine.

We could go further than just the definition of a single word and apply a context. This would shed a different light on whether you intent is to insult or not.

I refer you to my observation above concerning what I know and what you are guessing at.

I refer you to my observation that you are incorrect.

So you agree with me that 'ignorant' can be applied with intent to be insulting.

I never disagreed.

So you either agree or have no definitive opinion.

But I fail to see why that means that I am to be criticised for using the word with one of its other non-insulting meanings.

I see no critisism, only curiosity, please see above.

In the dictionary/ies which you use, how far down the list of meanings do you have to read before you encounter one which says it's an insult?

Not far at all.

There are many other words in your vocabulary which i grouped under 'worse' just to simplify things for you. Try searching all the permutations of insulting words. I would be interested to see what percentage that brings.

Do it yourself then, as you're interested.

I bow you your ability to go through and compile such statistics, i was only inviting you to look further. You, of course, are not obliged to do so and i doubt you will as it probably will not support your point of view.

Click.

But even if you do, that still won't prove that if I have called someone an ignorant ***************** that "ignorant" was in itself an insult.

This isn't a court of law, the burden of proof is not on me. However, in common terms, a lot of people will form their own judgement without absolute proof, but they will probably still be correct anyway.

Quit the opposite, i would say that using new words would expand your vocabulary, not restrict it.

Oh well, if you don't want to restrict it I'll carry on using "ignorant" then, but maybe add alternatives at times. How about "benighted"?

That sounds nice, roughly carries the same meaning, without the negative connotation. Very good, on-line theosaurus worked well there

Only valid if you feel that you are not insulting people.

I know I'm not.

But others don't feel that way. Im sure you feel justified in saying you don't feel as though you are insulting people when you call them 'ignorant'. Do you feel the same when you suggest that they are being 'blindingly stupid'

On the contrary - I would find it very taxing to have to restrict myself to only using words which could not be deliberately misinterpreted by people choosing to look for insults which are not there.

Why?

Because it would prevent me from using a word such as "ignorant" which is more efficient than "lacking in knowledge".

'unaware' would say the same thing without any suggestion of being inflammatory. I like benighted, its nice.

 

[CortinaV8]

All those quotes and replies when in reality all you want to say is he is a bit of a c*nt?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Its seems that you have adopted a defensive attitude here, im not critisising you,

I would generally temper my advice with good manners and refrain from trying to beat someone into submission on the subject, but i know this is not what you do.

Forgive me for interpreting an assertion that I do not temper my advice with good manners and that I attempt to beat people into submission as being critical.

Another definition of 'ignorant' is an 'imprecise personal insult', i might suggest that the general context of how you use the word would be this description.

Forgive me for interpreting an assertion that I use the word "ignorant" as an insult as being critical.

merely tring to find out why you say the things you do.

I say the things I do to impart the meanings I wish to impart.

I use the word "ignorant" to impart the meaning of lacking in knowledge, not as an insult.

Your missing the point, its really you opinion/definition of the 'best possible' solution that i am interested in.

Block paving.

In the dictionary/ies which you use, how far down the list of meanings do you have to read before you encounter one which says it's an insult?

Not far at all.

Is it ever listed as the most common meaning in current usage?

This isn't a court of law, the burden of proof is not on me. However, in common terms, a lot of people will form their own judgement without absolute proof, but they will probably still be correct anyway.

If their judgement is that "ignorant" is an insult then they will be incorrect, possibly because of their ignorance of what the word means.

That sounds nice, roughly carries the same meaning, without the negative connotation.

One of the meanings is "lacking moral enlightenment". That seems a bit negative to me.

But others don't feel that way.

A failing of theirs, brought about by ignorance?

Do you feel the same when you suggest that they are being 'blindingly stupid'

No.

Nor do I feel the same when I suggest that they have said something helpful.

Nor do I feel the same when I suggest that they have done something well.

'unaware' would say the same thing without any suggestion of being inflammatory.

As I said before, I refuse to stop using a perfectly ordinary and apposite word just because one of its less common meanings might be considered inflammatory.

I like benighted, its nice.

Are you sure that you aren't saying that because you are uncultured?