Wiring in LV lighting without using junction boxes

[bernardgreen]

Would you suggest that the popularity of Homepride Cook-In sauces should be a valid reason not to tell people that they are rubbish?

I have to concede that BAS has made a good and valid statement there....

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

BAS,

out of curiosity, what do you think is the intended use of downlighters?

Do you mean intended by the designer, or intended by the people who install them?

either/both, just trying to canvass your opinion in general

It would seem that despite your repeated suggestion that they are useless, lots of people are still installing them.

As I have observed elsewhere, (and this applies to all manner of human endeavours), popularity is absolutely no guide to quality or suitability, due in no small part to widespread ignorance.

[/quote]
Do you conclude that almost anyone who has or intends to install downlights is ignorant?

Who is correct - you (thats just you, singular, not including the mysterious 'we' that you like to trot out time and time again) or the many hundreds of people who have installed D/L's and are very happy with them?

I am.

as expected

I'm sure there are many hundreds of people who are very happy using neon screwdrivers too.

agreed, i would advise anyone who has one of those to restict its use to removal of earwax/bum scratching. Don't touch anything electrical with one.

Whether you like it or not, efficiency is not the primary deciding factor for everyone. Some people consider asthetics to be of equal importance

I know they do, but anybody who prioritises form over function to the extent that they misuse products and end up with badly working results should not be immune from criticism just because they happen to think it looks good.

hhmm, not disagreeing but lots of tenuous analogies could be drawn. i see a never ending thread here, probably leave that one.

This forum, surely, is about helping people to do things better, about helping them to do as good a job as they possibly can.

Agreed, but if the question is along the lines of 'i like downlighters, i like the effect and they look nice, please help me...' is it helpful to accuse that person of being ignorant?

Imagine if it were a forum dedicated to food, and cooking techniques, and recipes, and ingredients, and menus etc.

hhmmm, yes, beginning to feel hungry now

Would you suggest that the popularity of Homepride Cook-In sauces should be a valid reason not to tell people that they are rubbish?

Some people might like them , have you tried the Loyd Grossman Red Thai curry? Simple and tasty. (personally, i like to chuck a couple of finely chopped chillis into aswell )

Whats your view on Pot Noodles ?

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

popcorn anyone?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

either/both, just trying to canvass your opinion in general

I think the use intended by the designer is the spot lighting of a particular feature or a small area.

I think the use often intended by the people who fit them in their homes is the general lighting of a large area.

Do you conclude that almost anyone who has or intends to install downlights is ignorant?

I believe that an awful lot of them are.

as expected

Yup - the many hundreds of people who have installed D/L's and are very happy with them may only have installed them and be happy with them because of ignorance-based limits on their imagination or appreciation of what is possible.

agreed, i would advise anyone who has one of those to restict its use to removal of earwax/bum scratching. Don't touch anything electrical with one.

Is it right for you to give people that advice when many hundreds of them are quite happy with their choice?

hhmm, not disagreeing but lots of tenuous analogies could be drawn. i see a never ending thread here, probably leave that one.

Some may be tenuous, some not, but they are all going to tend in the same direction - prioritising form over function to such an extent that function is seriously crippled is wrong.

Agreed, but if the question is along the lines of 'i like downlighters, i like the effect and they look nice, please help me...' is it helpful to accuse that person of being ignorant?

What's wrong with helping people remedy their ignorance?

Some people might like them

They might like them, but read the question again - do you really think that on a forum dedicated to helping and advising and teaching people to raise their cooking game that the use of Homepride Cook-in sauces would be sanctioned just because some people like them?

have you tried the Loyd Grossman Red Thai curry?

No - the biggest ingredient is water, and I can get that out of my tap for free.

Simple and tasty.

Your own water from your own tap (or some proper stock made in bulk from bones and vegetables, and frozen in useable quantities), a can of coconut milk, and a good Thai paste (I recommend this one:

)

is also simple and tasty. And a lot more sensible than paying Lloyd Grossman for a jar of water.

(personally, i like to chuck a couple of finely chopped chillis into aswell )

If you use the Mae Ploy I suggest you try it without extra chillies at first.

Whats your view on Pot Noodles ?

Sorry - this is a family forum.

 

[dizz]

why can you use a choc box and not a junction box?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Because

The diameter of the hole for the light fitting (70mm) is big enough to slot the transformer into the ceiling void but not enough to get a jb in.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

can't be rzd to pick my way through all those quotes/cutpastes so i'll just respond to bits:- See above for clarity

BAS- "Is it right for you to give people that advice when many hundreds of them are quite happy with their choice? "

Subtle difference is that with the discussion of D/L's it is as you say, form over function/efficiency/appropriate application etc. and has no bearing on safety.
The discussion applied to neon deathsticks is to do with safety and increasing the probability of surviving a sunday mornings worth of DIY high-jinx.

BAS- "the biggest ingredient is water"

isn't that true of vitually any sauce from a jar? (ready sauce, not paste or concentrate) But some people will pay for mineral water! i mean really, actually pay real money, not fake money for water in a bottle. !? I doubt the CEO of Evian is going to be too concerned with our opinions so long as muppets keep buying the stuff.

BAS- "Some may be tenuous, some not, but they are all going to tend in the same direction - prioritising form over function to such an extent that function is seriously crippled is wrong. "

I refer you to my previous comment on this bit. I have nothing to say

BAS - "Yup - the many hundreds of people who have installed D/L's and are very happy with them may only have installed them and be happy with them because of ignorance-based limits on their imagination or appreciation of what is possible. "

Presently an unsubstantiated opinion of one person ( who BTW has a block paved driveway )

BAS - "What's wrong with helping people remedy their ignorance? "

Ah, that would be answering a question with a question. Some people consider that in common ettiquette, that is rude and evasive. Do you have a direct answer?

BAS - "They might like them, but read the question again - do you really think that on a forum dedicated to helping and advising and teaching people to raise their cooking game that the use of Homepride Cook-in sauces would be sanctioned just because some people like them? "

It depends on the nature of the cooking website. If it is "fine culinary skills.co.uk" then you might be right.
If it was "want something tasty, done in thirty minutes with minimal forethought and preperation time .com" (need to work on that title)
then you might be wrong.

BAS - "If you use the Mae Ploy I suggest you try it without extra chillies at first."

i've yet to come across any ready prep'd sauces/pastes that were too picante to benefit from a few extra pepper goodies. Anyone know where i can get some bhut jolokia locally? i wanna give those puppies a try - (check youtube, ramsey, india, Bhut jolokia, world record. shes a nutter )

BAS- "Sorry - this is a family forum."

Uncharacteristically reserved for you but i bet, deep down, you have a secret craving for them, deny it as much as you want

 

[ban-all-sheds]

can't be rzd to pick my way through all those quotes/cutpastes so i'll just respond to bits:- See above for clarity

BAS- "Is it right for you to give people that advice when many hundreds of them are quite happy with their choice? "

Subtle difference is that with the discussion of D/L's it is as you say, form over function/efficiency/appropriate application etc. and has no bearing on safety.
The discussion applied to neon deathsticks is to do with safety and increasing the probability of surviving a sunday mornings worth of DIY high-jinx.

It doesn't matter - it's still people thinking that their choice is correct because of ignorance.

BAS- "the biggest ingredient is water"

isn't that true of vitually any sauce from a jar? (ready sauce, not paste or concentrate)

Yup.

BAS - "Yup - the many hundreds of people who have installed D/L's and are very happy with them may only have installed them and be happy with them because of ignorance-based limits on their imagination or appreciation of what is possible. "

Presently an unsubstantiated opinion of one person

So you believe that everyone who installs 50mm recessed downlights to provide general room illumination is fully aware of their limitations?

( who BTW has a block paved driveway )

Which as I explained before has no functional problems, and which was made using materials and techniques designed for the purpose for which it is used.

Ah, that would be answering a question with a question. Some people consider that in common ettiquette, that is rude and evasive. Do you have a direct answer?

Isn't that a question from you in reply to my question "What's wrong with helping people remedy their ignorance?"?

Agreed, but if the question is along the lines of 'i like downlighters, i like the effect and they look nice, please help me...' is it helpful to accuse that person of being ignorant?

Yes.

Do you believe that there is something wrong with helping people remedy their ignorance?

It depends on the nature of the cooking website. If it is "fine culinary skills.co.uk" then you might be right.
If it was "want something tasty, done in thirty minutes with minimal forethought and preperation time .com" (need to work on that title)
then you might be wrong.

Do you regard this site as aimed at the "want a quick bit of DIY electrical work done with minimal thought and preparation time" audience?

i've yet to come across any ready prep'd sauces/pastes that were too picante to benefit from a few extra pepper goodies.

Fair enough, but if you are ignorant of the nature of Mae Ploy pastes then my warning might have been invaluable to you.

Anyone know where i can get some bhut jolokia locally? i wanna give those puppies a try

Tescos were selling the Dorset Naga (same thing) last year. Or you can buy seeds in the UK and grow your own.

(check youtube, ramsey, india, Bhut jolokia, world record. shes a nutter )

I've heard about the woman who rubs them in her eyes etc, but not seen it. Doesn't she have a genetic mutation which means that she isn't sensitive to capsaicin?

This guy doesn't though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaEjcY30wgY&feature=channel

but i bet, deep down, you have a secret craving for them,

You'd lose that bet.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

can't be rzd to pick my way through all those quotes/cutpastes so i'll just respond to bits:- See above for clarity

BAS- "Is it right for you to give people that advice when many hundreds of them are quite happy with their choice? "

Subtle difference is that with the discussion of D/L's it is as you say, form over function/efficiency/appropriate application etc. and has no bearing on safety.
The discussion applied to neon deathsticks is to do with safety and increasing the probability of surviving a sunday mornings worth of DIY high-jinx.

It doesn't matter - it's still people thinking that their choice is correct because of ignorance.

i was focussing on the fact that one is about safety and may possibly save a life, the other is just personal choice and will only effect the lekky bill. So i think it does matter

BAS- "the biggest ingredient is water"

isn't that true of vitually any sauce from a jar? (ready sauce, not paste or concentrate)

Yup.

Do you avoid buying anything with water added, preferring to add your own later?

BAS - "Yup - the many hundreds of people who have installed D/L's and are very happy with them may only have installed them and be happy with them because of ignorance-based limits on their imagination or appreciation of what is possible. "

Presently an unsubstantiated opinion of one person

So you believe that everyone who installs 50mm recessed downlights to provide general room illumination is fully aware of their limitations?

Nope, i have opinions on the use of downlights, they are not the same as yours, but not polar opposite to them either.

( who BTW has a block paved driveway )

Which as I explained before has no functional problems, and which was made using materials and techniques designed for the purpose for which it is used.

but there are better, more robust and cheaper options available.

Ah, that would be answering a question with a question. Some people consider that in common ettiquette, that is rude and evasive. Do you have a direct answer?

Isn't that a question from you in reply to my question "What's wrong with helping people remedy their ignorance?"?

question to a question to a question, where did it start? hhmmm...

Agreed, but if the question is along the lines of 'i like downlighters, i like the effect and they look nice, please help me...' is it helpful to accuse that person of being ignorant?

Yes.

I have observed that many people disagree with you.

Do you believe that there is something wrong with helping people remedy their ignorance?

nope

It depends on the nature of the cooking website. If it is "fine culinary skills.co.uk" then you might be right.
If it was "want something tasty, done in thirty minutes with minimal forethought and preperation time .com" (need to work on that title)
then you might be wrong.

Do you regard this site as aimed at the "want a quick bit of DIY electrical work done with minimal thought and preparation time" audience?

nope

i've yet to come across any ready prep'd sauces/pastes that were too picante to benefit from a few extra pepper goodies.

Fair enough, but if you are ignorant of the nature of Mae Ploy pastes then my warning might have been invaluable to you.

Have you sampled every type of paste commercially available?

Anyone know where i can get some bhut jolokia locally? i wanna give those puppies a try

Tescos were selling the Dorset Naga (same thing) last year. Or you can buy seeds in the UK and grow your own.

Haven't noticed any in our Tescos, the strongest i've got from there were green finger chillis, IIRC. (Jalepenos are girl-chillis or garnish )

(check youtube, ramsey, india, Bhut jolokia, world record. shes a nutter )

I've heard about the woman who rubs them in her eyes etc, but not seen it. Doesn't she have a genetic mutation which means that she isn't sensitive to capsaicin?

she may do, theres certainly something not right about her, thats for sure.

This guy doesn't though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaEjcY30wgY&feature=channel[/QUOTE]made me smile seeing him again. I bet parts of his anatomy resemble the Japanese flag some mornings

but i bet, deep down, you have a secret craving for them,

You'd lose that bet.

The love for Pot Noodles is a deep seated emotion, one which i wouldn't expect anyone with a repressed personality to reveal in an open forum, dirty-boy!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

i was focussing on the fact that one is about safety and may possibly save a life, the other is just personal choice and will only effect the lekky bill. So i think it does matter

Oh well - I don't, because I think this site is about getting people to do the best job they possibly can.

Do you avoid buying anything with water added, preferring to add your own later?

Of course not.

So you believe that everyone who installs 50mm recessed downlights to provide general room illumination is fully aware of their limitations?

Nope, i have opinions on the use of downlights, they are not the same as yours, but not polar opposite to them either.

So you don't believe that everyone who installs 50mm recessed downlights to provide general room illumination is fully aware of their limitations but you don't think that their ignorance should be remedied?

but there are better, more robust and cheaper options available.

I'm sure that there are other options which are cheaper and/or more robust, and therefore might be better if you want a cheaper or more robust option.

I have observed that many people disagree with you.

So?

Do you believe that there is something wrong with helping people remedy their ignorance?

nope

Good.

Do you regard this site as aimed at the "want a quick bit of DIY electrical work done with minimal thought and preparation time" audience?

nope

Good.

Have you sampled every type of paste commercially available?

No.

Haven't noticed any in our Tescos, the strongest i've got from there were green finger chillis, IIRC. (Jalepenos are girl-chillis or garnish )

There are ones around here (and other chains, I think) who regularly have birdseye and Scotch Bonnet. Guess it depends on the tastes of their catchment areas.

 

[Taylortwocities]

why can you use a choc box and not a junction box?

Don't you go an spoil things by throwing in questions that are not relavent!

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

i was focussing on the fact that one is about safety and may possibly save a life, the other is just personal choice and will only effect the lekky bill. So i think it does matter

Oh well - I don't, because I think this site is about getting people to do the best job they possibly can.

do you believe that anything less than 'best possible' solution/job is the reserve of ignorant fools?

Do you avoid buying anything with water added, preferring to add your own later?

Of course not.

oh, thats ok then, i was beginning to wonder if you were a neurotic manic compulsive with OCD. It appears as though that is not true.

So you believe that everyone who installs 50mm recessed downlights to provide general room illumination is fully aware of their limitations?

Nope, i have opinions on the use of downlights, they are not the same as yours, but not polar opposite to them either.

So you don't believe that everyone who installs 50mm recessed downlights to provide general room illumination is fully aware of their limitations but you don't think that their ignorance should be remedied?

would you care to re-phrase into something that is less ambiguous?

but there are better, more robust and cheaper options available.

I'm sure that there are other options which are cheaper and/or more robust, and therefore might be better if you want a cheaper or more robust option.

So you chose what you preferred against the best possible solution, whatever that may be?

I have observed that many people disagree with you.

So?

so i was responding to what you said.

Do you believe that there is something wrong with helping people remedy their ignorance?

nope

Good.

Do you regard this site as aimed at the "want a quick bit of DIY electrical work done with minimal thought and preparation time" audience?

nope

Good.

Have you sampled every type of paste commercially available?

No.

Does that mean that you are ignorant?

Haven't noticed any in our Tescos, the strongest i've got from there were green finger chillis, IIRC. (Jalepenos are girl-chillis or garnish )

There are ones around here (and other chains, I think) who regularly have birdseye and Scotch Bonnet. Guess it depends on the tastes of their catchment areas.

birdeyes are goodies, but felt that you usually get better VFM from green finger as they come packaged in a greater quantity.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

why can you use a choc box and not a junction box?

Don't you go an spoil things by throwing in questions that are not relavent!

yea, button it!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

do you believe that anything less than 'best possible' solution/job is the reserve of ignorant fools?

I believe that ignorance and foolishness may lead people into doing a poor job.

would you care to re-phrase into something that is less ambiguous?

So you believe that everyone who installs 50mm recessed downlights to provide general room illumination is fully aware of their limitations?

Nope

Do you believe that anyone who is planning to install 50mm recessed downlights to provide general room illumination and is not fully aware of their limitations be made aware of them?

So you chose what you preferred against the best possible solution, whatever that may be?

No.

What are you hoping to establish with this sub-text about block-paved driveways?

Does that mean that you are ignorant?

Of some things yes, of course.

There is nobody in the world who is not ignorant of more things than he is knowledgeable about.

birdeyes are goodies, but felt that you usually get better VFM from green finger as they come packaged in a greater quantity.

Scotch Bonnet are fun, when you use them in ignorance in a chilli recipe calling for "x red chillies".


Enjoy: http://www.hungrymonster.com/humor/Jokes.cfm?jid=386

 

[RF Lighting]

Throughout my working career I have installed and seen virtually every different style and type of light fitting available on the market, ranging from the humble 6" flex drop, to custom built architectural fittings, and 100kW halogen stage rigs.

I am not ignorant of the choice of fittings, lamp types and control available to light a given space. I use a huge variety of different fittings to suit the environment I am lighting.

I have still not seen anything else on the market which is as good as ELV downlighters for lighting some rooms in a domestic premisis.

They provide instant bright light.
They are infinately dimmable.
They are aesthetically pleasing.
They give a good even spread of light.
They are cheap to buy and maintain.

Now I am not saying that they are the best lighting soloution in all circumstances. I have two fluorescent battens in my kitchen, and I doubt there is a better way to light a kitchen. I certainly wouldn't consider any other type of lighting in a commercial kitchen.