Metal lamp holder not earthed - pendant pedant

Discussion in 'Electrics UK' started by McKenna32, 29 Sep 2019.

  1. McKenna32

    McKenna32

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    So, pendants from big UK DIY chain - they seem to sell a few of them and have done for at least a year or so (have had my eye on them).

    Finally bought, fitted, tested earth continuity and…****…the metal lamp holders aren’t earthed. Obvious now I look again – I didn’t think to even look for earth continuity in the shop (or at any point while screwing them in…). The ceiling rose is earthed fine, but it’s just 2 cores in 2 black nylon overbraids from there to the lamp holder. It’s stated clearly as Class 1 on the box.

    The construction of the lamp holder does seem robustly insulated and the L and N contacts sit in a neat moulded plastic insert that could quite conceivably be Class 2 should it be a standalone thing. I haven’t managed to easily take them apart to get a look internally, though.

    So this seems weird, right? What would you more knowledgeable folk do when testing up a fitting that’s supposed to be from a reputable source but fails the tests it must pass according to the approvals it is sold with? Judgment of the installer?

    i.e. can stores sell any old electrical crap and its down to the installer to ensure it is fit for purpose? (in this case, the logical conclusion is to take it apart and run an earth wire. Or more practically REFUND)

    My most optimistic take is that the store do hold some liability risk should something go wrong with anything they sell, and are happy that a failure in the lamp holder is so vanishingly unlikely that it is fine to sell in its current state as a Class 1 device, which if it’s good enough for them and their lawyers, it’s good enough for me.

    They could then also be assuming that 99% of their customers are DIY’ing it and not aware of the tests/regs anyway, so the 1% return rate they do get, from those that do the tests, is easily offset in the cost reduction of the design...

    Any thoughts?

    To be clear – this is DIY :)

    Cheers
     

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  3. EFLImpudence

    EFLImpudence

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    Well - if it states clearly Class 1 on the box, there isn't much to discuss.
     
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  4. securespark

    securespark

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    Are there any DI (box in a box) symbols on the unit/ label/ packaging/ instructions?
     
  5. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    As EFLI has implied, that seems very unlikley given ...
    Kind Regards, John
     
  6. sparkwright

    sparkwright

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    Could it be that the 'rose' is class 1, and the lampholder class 2?
     
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  7. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    Isn't that rather back-to-front? Surely both the retailer and their lawyers would be unhappy selling something they believed/claimed was Class I when it clearly is manufactured/assembled in a manner that would not be legal for a ('fully') Class I item?

    I would think that sparkwright's suggestion is perhaps the most likely - i.e. the lampholder is Class II (so legal as wired), although the rose is Class I - the issue being the writing on the box? However, if that were the case, then, as securespark implied, the lampholder should bear a Class II marking.

    Kind Regards, John
    Edit: inexplicable misaccreditation of quote corrected!
     
    Last edited: 29 Sep 2019
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  8. sparkwright

    sparkwright

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    Some of the op's original text has been wrongly quoted by me at the top of the last post.
     
  9. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    How strange. Goodness knows how that happened - but now corrected!
     
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  11. winston1

    winston1

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    Don’t return it. It will be put back into stock. Take it to trading standards. Hopefully they will tell the store to withdraw it.
     
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  12. aptsys

    aptsys

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    Looks like a standard Class II lampholder with some metal around it. I don't see any issue here.
     
  13. McKenna32

    McKenna32

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    The issue is there are only class 1 markings, so AFAIK all exposed metal parts have to be earthed - explicitly, which they are not.

    I think this is the most likely by the sounds of it, which would be perfectly safe of course, but no way of knowing

    I'll see if I can get some info out of them today. What's the standard this would contravene if so? BS61140??

    Cheers
     
  14. aptsys

    aptsys

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    I'm not sure that's true - I'll have to try to dig up the standard. I forsee that would be impractical or impossible in many situations.
     
  15. ericmark

    ericmark

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    I had a mag mount drill to PAT test, the drill clearly marked class II but the magnet base also clearly class I, however there was in this case a clear class II marking on the drill.

    So next is look at lighting, clearly a screw bulb can only be class II there is no way to earth it, but a BA22d bulb could be either class I or class II it does have a metal shell that could be earthed, I have looked at LED BA22d bulbs not one marked as class II. Now looking at bulb holders for BA22d bulbs now these do have in some cases a class II marking, but looking at E14 and E27 screw bulb holders not seen any with class II markings, maybe because they can't earth a class I bulb as they don't have three connections.

    I have considered the same with my plug in ceiling rose, the plug has three connections and the screws clearly earth the plug casing [​IMG] but can one really rely on the chain to take the earth to the lamp holder? I would say no, it needs a three core cable, but the cable goes into the bulb holder which is class II there is no provision to connect an earth with plastic bulb holders. With a brass bulb holder [​IMG] yes there is a place for the earth so it can be class I but not seen any plastic bulb holders where you can fit an earth. From picture can't work out if that bulb holder is metal or plastic, but it is clearly for a screw in bulb, so I looked at web sites selling brass bulb holders for ES bulbs [​IMG] Clearly no connection for an earth, picked this picture because one can see the parts, or so I thought, but on the advert is states "As this is a metal lampholder, ensure you use a 3 core mains flex to provide an earth connection to this lampholder." so that bit of metal at bottom of base must make connection to the shell. I note with the metal ceiling rose there is a plastic insert to use when not using hook so the outer of the flex when the flex takes the weight is not in contact with metal, if the lamp in question was class II I would expect to see a similar bit of plastic so flex can't touch the metal, but that does not seem to be there. And what seems like a plastic screw is forcing the flex against side of hole so it could with rubber in material insulated flex damage the flex at that point causing contact with live parts. Although we tend to not touch lamps, with plug in lamps they can be handled much more, the ceiling lamp over my dinning table is far too low if table removed so if we put table away we also plug in a shorter lamp, so it is likely handled more than the water boiler.

    So it does seem wrong, however so do BA22d bulbs without the class II sticker.
     
  16. sparkwright

    sparkwright

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    I don't think we've seen the 'rose' part of it yet. This may have an earth connection (after all this is where the wires coming out of the ceiling will go to), so it may well be class 1 as described.
     
  17. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    It is true that we haven't literally seen it, but the OP wrote ...
    As most of us have said, it does seem that the most likely explanation is that the lampholder is Class II, whereas the rose is Class I.

    This begs two questions - firstly, in such a 'mixed' (Class I + Class II) situation, what would we expect to be written on the box? In at least some senses, "Class I" would seem to be the 'safer' option?

    Secondly, as already mentioned and discussed, is it actually compulsory that a Class II 'component' (i.e. the lampholder) must bear a Class II symbol/marking? - and I don't know the answer to that one. I had always assumed that if a product had exposed-conductive-parts and was not marked as being Class II, then it had to be regarded as Class I, and hence those exposed-c-ps earthed. However, as has been pointed out, such marking might be impractical in some cases (but not, I would have thought, for a lampholder) - so it will be interesting to see if anyone can come up with any 'chapter and verse' as regards what the relevant Standard says about this.

    Kind Regards, John
     
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