Multiple led recessed lights to rose

This is getting interesting. I have received a response from Surewire (to my second e-mailtoi them , as above) who, as you will see, have sought the opinion of the BSI ....

Surewire said:
Sorry for the delay in answering you but I asked The British Standard Institute (BSI) to clarify this for you.
There response is below.
------------------------------------------
Hi Phillip

I have looked over this and it would probably be related to how the wiring regs are read and for which section. Its unfortunately a 500 page document with many different sections.

What I can say is that the scope of 5733 states that is for use on products that have no other specific standard
[image of ‘Scope’ clause of BS 5733 – which does, indeed, say what is stated above]

Your product has a specific standard 60670-22 which is for connection boxes and enclosures.
[image of title page of EN 60670-22, confirming that it is the Standard for “connection boxes and enclosures”]

It seems clear to me that 60670-22 is the applicable standard and not 5733.

For the connectors it is a similar situation that these are approved to their own applicable standard. BS 5733 is the wrong standard for this. These connectors are certified in their own right by a Dutch certification body called Dekra and comply with the relevant standards.

Hope this helps.
Thanks
******
Electrical & Gas Certification Group Manager
BSI

In response to that, I have just written to thjem again, as follows ...

JohnW2 said:
Thanks for your reply, and oir having taken the trouble to consult the BSI in relation to this issue.

Whilst what the BSI have said makes sense, the problem is with the IET Wiring Regulations (aka BS 7671), which is co-authored by the BSI. Although your contact at the BSI is correct in saying that BS 7671 contains 500+ pages, I can save him hunting through it all, since the clause of relevance is 526.3(vi), which reads:

"526.3 Every connection shall be accessible for inspection, testing and maintenance, except for the following
(i)... (ii)... (iii)... (iv)... (v)...
(vi) Equipment complying with BS 5733 for a maintenance-free accessory and marked with the symbol (MF) and installed in accordance with the manufacturer';s instructions."

Your contact at the BSI said that the answer to your (and my) question "would probably be related to how the wiring regs [BS 7671] are read", which is a fair comment, but since the BSI are co--authors of BS7671, one would hope that he (the BSI) will have an authoritative view as to how 526.3(vi) of BS 7671 "should be read". On the face of it, that clause requires that, in order to be allowed to be installed in a non-accessible location, it must [as well as bearing the (MF) symbol] be "compliant with BS 5733" (even if you/he feel that to be inappropriate), and most electricians appear to be interpreting this as meaning that it must bear a BS 5733 marking as well as the (MF) symbol.

I imagine that you will want to raise this further issue with the BSI, and I look forward to hearing their view, particularly in relation to the interpretation of 526.3(vi) of BS 7671.

I will keep you all posted.

Kind Regards, John
 
Sponsored Links
Sorry for the delay in answering you but I asked The British Standard Institute (BSI) to clarify this for you.
There response is below.
------------------------------------------
Hi Phillip

I have looked over this and I'm afraid we DHAFC.

We don't know what the Wiring Regulations say.

We don't know what "MF" means.

We don't know what the relationship between BS 5733 and MF is.

We don't know what manufacturers have to do to justifiably claim BS 5733 compliance.
 
The interesting thing, as I essentially pointed out in my latest response, is that the BSI are 'responsible for' both BS 7671 as well as BS 5733, yet they appear to be saying that BS 7671 is 'inappropriately' requiring MF JBs to comply with BS 5733! The next response might be even more 'interesting'!

Kind Regards, John
 
This is getting rather tedious, and a little painful. Below is a further ("I hope this helps"!) response from Surewire and my response to this response!
Surewire said:
I will try and enhance on the explanation of the standards and requirements.

In the Schedule of Accreditation for Electrical Wiring Accessories it states the following:-

  1. For electrical accessories not covered by other British Standards. The product test is to be electrically safe. BS5733:2010 is the minimum standard to be used.
  2. Boxes and enclosures for electrical accessories for household and similar fixed electrical installations (General Requirement). The product test is electrically safe. BS EN 60670-1 2005. This standard is of a higher standard than BS5733:2010. Surewire products conform to and has been tested to this standard by BSI.
  3. Connecting boxes and enclosures. The product test is electrically safe. BS EN 60670-22:2006 MF. The testing for this standard includes overloading and hot wiring to test the integrity of the system. The construction materials has to be where it does not give off smoke or fume, does not burst into flames and does not deteriorate through the aging process. Surewire products conform to and has been tested to this standard by BSI.
  4. The Hager maintenance free range J803 & J804 conform to this standard and are widely used.
  5. Wago have just upgraded their Connexbox (Wagobox) range to meet this higher requirement.
On your last communication you quoted the regulation 526.3 A joint can be any of the 5 listed. Ours conforms to 526.3 (v). A joint forming part of the equipment complying with the appropriate product standard ie: BS EN 60670-22:2006 MF.

If you wish any further clarification then you will have to contact British Standards as our products conform to all the required regulations and it is illegal for any product to carry the MF logo without the authorisation.

I hope this helps.

... and my response to that ...
JohnW2 said:
Thanks for your further communication.

I do not doubt what you say about the Schedule of Accreditation for Electrical Wiring Accessories. As for "The Hager maintenance free range J803 & J804 conform to this standard and are widely used", that is indeed true. Those products are, as you say, widely used by electricians when they install junction boxes in non-accessible locations. and they are happy so to do because those products appear to conform fully with 526.3(vi) of BS7671, in that they not only bear the MF marking but ALSO a marking indicating compliance with BS5733 (as well as BS EN 60670-022) - see attached photo (graphite applied to aid visibility of embossed markings!).

You refer to the 5 parts of 526.3(vi) of BS7671 and say that your product conforms with 526.3(v). I presume that is a typographical error, since there are actually 6 types of non-accessible joint listed, and the one you mention applies to factory-installed joints within equipment, clearly not applicable to your products.

I therefore presume you meant 526.3(vi), which is the relevant regulation which I mentioned previously. However. as I said before, many (quite probably most) electricians take that regulation to mean what it says - namely that, in order to be acceptable for non-accessible use, a junction box has to bear an 'MF' marking AND ALSO be compliant with BS 5733 - and, as I said before, that probably means that most electrician feel that a junction box is only acceptable for non-accessible use if it bears a BS 5733 marking (as do the Hager/Ashley J803 and J804).

As for your final comment, I would have thought it more in your (commercial) interests than mine to look further into this matter. It is not the MF marking (which I presume your products have 'legally') which I am talking about. Rather, I am pointing out that BS 7671 requires that, in addition to bearing the 'MF' marking, a non-accessible junction box must ALSO comply with BS 5733 - so I suspect that many/most electricians will be hesitant to use your products (in non-accessible locations) unless/until your products bear a BS 5733 marking (which the Hager/Ashley ones do) as well as the MF one (and BS EN 60670-22 one).

Whether or not it is appropriate to require such products to comply with BS 5733 is not something I am competent to judge, but the fact remains that another British Standard (and the one to which electricians work) does require that for non-accessible junction boxes. If you have a problem with that, I would think you would probably want to raise it with those at the BSI who are responsible for BS 7671.

Kind Regards, John
 
Sponsored Links
I admire your perseverance! The communication from them suggests they don't have a clue what the issue is about. They seem to have done a copy/paste job and not re-read it to see if the grammar still works. Actually, I doubt if anyone anywhere really knows what the requirement is. We are talking about spec development by committee, after all.
 
I admire your perseverance! The communication from them suggests they don't have a clue what the issue is about. They seem to have done a copy/paste job and not re-read it to see if the grammar still works. Actually, I doubt if anyone anywhere really knows what the requirement is. We are talking about spec development by committee, after all.
I agree on all points. Perhaps the most disturbing thing is that, as you will have seen, the previous response I got was primarily a forward of a message from the "Electrical & Gas Certification Group Manager" at the BSI. If he also has no clue about what 'certification' he is meant to be managing, then we might as well give up!

Kind Regards, John
 

DIYnot Local

Staff member

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Back
Top