Need help please with combi Vaillant Boiler

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Well, I had a brand new Vaillant Ecotec Plus 831 boiler fitted 3 years by a corgi registered person after my old boiler had its days after 15 years.

Since that day I have had nothing but trouble with the boiler.

After 4 weeks of fitting the boiler it started to make a lot noise, then temperature on the boiler should it went to 74C then cut off. It then bought up an error of f23.

We rang up Vaillant as it was under guarantee. The Vaillant engineer came and said the secondary heat exchanger had blocked up because the system has not been flushed properly. The engineer opened up the boiler and cleaned out the heat exchanger in front of us. It had black bits in the 2 holes which are linked to the radiator system.

So we then rang the person who fitted the boiler. He firstly denied it was his fault. Saying he had already powerflushed the system when fitting the boiler. We got the manufacturer to ring him. He then rang us back saying he would do a powerflush a second time but after that if anything happened it would not be his fault.

So the boiler person came and powerflushed the system, he spent the whole day doing it. Going to each radiator turning the valves on and off.
Then after 2 weeks the boiler started to do the same thing as before stopped working. So we got some other plumbers to give their opinion.

One said fit a Magnaclean. So we fitted a Magnaclean. But still the boiler had same trouble of heat exchanger getting blocked.

Another plumber said fit a Y strainer. So we fitted a Y strainer. Still we had the same trouble.

Another plumber said fit Auto valves on the highest points, so you don’t have air in the system. We did that but still had the same trouble.

We then rang Vaillant to say that we are still having the problem. The engineer came back, showed us the black bits coming out of the heat exchanger. He said one of radiators must be corroding that is why the stuff keeps coming.

So then we changed all the radiators. And now still we have the same problem and also the guarantee has finished so i can’t go back to the manufacturer. It has just become one big headache. I feel like throwing the boiler out.

Some more information:
I contacted magnaclean, and there system doesn’t seem to capture all the magnetic bits because the water comes in at such high pressure and they are so small. Also the y strainer doesn’t capture the bits as they are so small. It seems the secondary heat exchanger collects all the small bits and they become big bits and block up the heat exchanger. The bits are magnetic, I tried it with a magnet.

Over the 3 years i have put the following cleaning agents and inhibitors into the radiator system to solve the problem but none of them worked fernox f3 cleaner, fernox f3 superconcentrate central heating cleaner, fernox f1 superconcentrate central heating protector, Sentinel x400, Sentinel x100, B&Q cleaner, B&Q inhibitor.

Once the pressure is filled in the radiator system it doesn’t lose pressure.
The bits in heat exchanger are big black and magnetic. The bits on the magnaclean are fine soot like.

So has anyone got any solutions to why this is happening and what is the solution?

I really need your help!
 
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do you by any chance have iron pipework in the heating circuit? it is not the fault of the boiler and they are as reliable as the system they are fitted to.
in fairness to your guys they have done all that i would do and it is very unusual for this to happen when a mag clean and a strainer are fitted both should ideally be fitted on the return pipework to the boiler.
 
Both magnaclean and y strainer are connected to the returning flow. I pretty sure we have copper pipe everywhere. All the pipes i can see are copper. Obviously i can't see the pipe underfloors.

Isn't there something that will just dissolve the magnetite and solve the problem?
 
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You've been using non-acid clleaners, preferred because they are less likely to cause leaks on old systems. Even so, your case is unusual. It's possible your system is drawing air IN somewhere, without leaking out, which would constantly introduce new oxygen. Only way to monitor that if your pressure is OK, is to keep checking inhibitor level.
Fernox DS-40, Kamco FX-2 are mild acids, which are pretty good at dissolving rust. It's asking a lot to dissolve rust and not the steel it came from, but they're about as close as you'll safely get. They DO need neutralising and flushing out properly.
I believe Sentinel do a similar product, can't remember.

Read the instructions. The stuff really needs to go in and be circulated preferably warm, cos it's quicker, for a while before the flushing is done.

You'll need to clean the boiler too of course, which may need more than the whole-system flush.

Then double-dose it with or Fernox or Sentinel or Kamco inhibitor!
There are other good ones, but also some rubbish too.
 
Does this stuff need to be added through a powerflusher? Or should i added it to the system and just leave it running around the system for a week?
 
Might be a good idea to replace the hoses connected to the heat exchanger with the updated copper ones. With the problems you've been having, its a dead cert they're holding onto a load of sludge. Very surprising that the plate he is blocking without affecting the canoe filter or pressure sensor, I wonder if the canoe filter was removed at some point?
Also its possible when the 2nd powerflush was done that it was done without the boiler in line, and the main heat exchanger could be holding a load of debris as well, there is an outside chance also that the main heat exchanger is corroding, this is very rare and normally caused by installers leaving cleaner in the system.
 
Just had a reply by someone and they said the following
"This the typical problem which has happened to quite a few people,the fault lays in the poxy heat exchanger.

It is made by by gionnoni and at certain points it has clearances of 5mm as well being dual pass

Even the slightest amount debris will block this up and once in it is very hard to shift,we have one in the garage which is blocked solid and changed great cost to the customer,The manufacturers know about it but will always blame the installer normally one man band and whole weight of massive organistaion on his back.

The twits at ginnoni have now redesigned it remarkably similiar to another boiler manufacturer who hold patent to their HE which is alot better,thats why they warranty it for 10 years
what i would suggest is first remove the cause of the magnetite and then ask the installer to flush just the heat exchanger by cutting into the flow and return ,personally use small descaleing pump for this type of work and hope it gets rid of the problem "

Anyone heard of this?
 
I have dealt with a lot of badly sludged systems.

All it needs is a bit of time and an understanding of which chemicals are needed.

Unfortunately there are a lot of people who have the power flusher but just dont want to spend the money on the chemicals or just dont know what to use!

This weekend I have to replace the main heat exchanger in a Vokera which was under a BG contract.

They knocked a temperature sensor plug off so the hot water was overheating and totally blocked the heat exchanger with lime scale. The primary side was also badly sludged up and I have to treat this when I replace the HE. Some of the boiler waterways are 80% blocked!

Her heating system is very seriously sludged up. I have agreed to power flush it as required but its going to be a very time consuming job.

I am only doing it for her because she is a nice person whose brother had a serious accident and she left her job for a year to look after him. Now he is a bit better and her mother has taken over so she has restarted working but lost the good job she had before.

Tony
 
Just had a reply by someone and they said the following
"This the typical problem which has happened to quite a few people,the fault lays in the poxy heat exchanger.

It is made by by gionnoni and at certain points it has clearances of 5mm as well being dual pass

Even the slightest amount debris will block this up and once in it is very hard to shift,we have one in the garage which is blocked solid and changed great cost to the customer,The manufacturers know about it but will always blame the installer normally one man band and whole weight of massive organistaion on his back.

The twits at ginnoni have now redesigned it remarkably similiar to another boiler manufacturer who hold patent to their HE which is alot better,thats why they warranty it for 10 years
what i would suggest is first remove the cause of the magnetite and then ask the installer to flush just the heat exchanger by cutting into the flow and return ,personally use small descaleing pump for this type of work and hope it gets rid of the problem "

Anyone heard of this?

A few half truths and a lot of made up untruths!
Yes the clearances are small through the heat exchanger, however they are consistent in size and not as small as 5mm!
Yes they will block up easy if you have a dirty system, but then you shouldn't connect one to a dirty system! So yes the installer gets blamed and rightly so!
If you have had it on a dirty system the heat exchanger could well be holding onto alot of the muck and the boiler itself should be included in the flush, but then I have already said that in my first post!
Personally if i were dealing with it I wouldn't "hope" to get rid of the problem, I "would" get rid of the problem.
 
That heat exchanger has four different loops in parallel. If any loop gets completely blocked then it cannot be reclaimed. That will not have happened in your case.

The 5mm gap is only about 1.5 mm but its not in the main heat exchanger but in the plate heat exchanger.

These are only boilers but they do need a certain level of knowledge and skill. Not everyone who tries to work on heating has that!

Tony
 
Hi,
I just saw there is black piece of dirt in the condensate siphon. What does this mean?

I also checked the small bits are not magnetic.
 
Hi,
I just saw there is black piece of dirt in the condensate siphon. What does this mean?
.

nothing its irrelevant. If you still have problems you need someone who knows your boiler and knows how to do a powerflush "properly" including the boiler in the flush.
 
Hi,
A corgi plumber is coming on wednesday to power flush the system on wednesday. I am going to hire the machine as i can get it cheaper than the plumber. I was wondering should i get hss brand of cleaning chemicals or sentinel x400 for the powerflushing?
 

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