New Oven delivered, refused installation

[ericmark]

Eric. How do you get to VOELCB in a TT installation from the original post? Without seeing the installation it is guesswork as to whether the oven fitter is right or wrong. What is worse, refusing to install or installing the oven despite a fault.

Installing with a fault is clearly the worse. But not complying with regulations is very different from a fault.

For example a volt drop of 20 volt does not comply but it does not cause a danger in its self so I would not refuse to fit simply because the volt drop is too great.

However this is personally and any tradesman is paid as a tradesmen because he has the knowledge and training to make a personal decision as to if safe to fit or not.

We simply don't know why it was not fitted. Until we do can't really say if valid or not.

 

[deadshort]

But its dovetailed joints are exquisite !


DS

 

[deadshort]

Eric. How do you get to VOELCB in a TT installation from the original post? Without seeing the installation it is guesswork as to whether the oven fitter is right or wrong. What is worse, refusing to install or installing the oven despite a fault.

Installing with a fault is clearly the worse. But not complying with regulations is very different from a fault.

For example a volt drop of 20 volt does not comply but it does not cause a danger in its self so I would not refuse to fit simply because the volt drop is too great.

However this is personally and any tradesman is paid as a tradesmen because he has the knowledge and training to make a personal decision as to if safe to fit or not.

We simply don't know why it was not fitted. Until we do can't really say if valid or not.

The decision should be based on FACTS not "personal decision". DS

 

[scousespark]

I was under the impression we work to the current regs and don't try go apply previous editions. If the installer has determined the circuit (if he is fitting one) cannot be installed in accordance with bs7671:2008 he cannot proceed. It's irrelevant if it would have been compliant for the past 40 years. I would agree that a fuller explanation should be given.

 

[JohnW2]

I was under the impression we work to the current regs and don't try go apply previous editions. If the installer has determined the circuit (if he is fitting one) cannot be installed in accordance with bs7671:2008 he cannot proceed.

I would imagine that everyone would agree with that, IF a new circuit were being installed. However, the installers used by the purveyors of appliances rarely, if ever, get involved in the installation of new circuits. On the contrary, the availability of the installation service is usually conditional on their being a suitable existing circuit available within X cm of the installation position.

If, for example, that existing circuit was wired in VIR, or if the OPD protecting it was inappropriate (for cable and/or appliance), or if a satisfactory earth connection was absent or the EFLI was appreciably too high (in a TN installation) then I could understand them refusing to install. I might also say the same in relation to eric's hypothetical 'VOLECB in a TT installation' in the unlikely event that it arose - but I'm not sure what other factors would make me refuse to connect to an existing circuit. 'Age of CU', per se, is clearly not an adequate reason.

Kind Regards, John

 

[RF Lighting]

This could be a can of worms, but what if there's no main bonding?

 

[westie101]

Seems to me that the fixed (shall we say) circuit ceases at the point the flexible cable from the cooker connects at the wall. similar to any flex outlet!

Certainly there is a need to say the system is not unsafe, but to not connect a cooker on an older wiring system without RCD protection is not in my view reasonable, and smacks of trying to get work at the expense of the customer

I had a similar issue with our last cooker with demands that I pay the delivery company electrician do the work, once sight of my ID card and my voltage authorisation was seen the delivery guy went very quiet and went on his way

 

[JohnW2]

This could be a can of worms, but what if there's no main bonding?

I reckon that's probably a more marginal one. If there are unbonded things which are (or may be) unbonded extraneous-c-ps within reaching distance of the new appliance, then I can see an argument. Otherwise, although clearly a potential problem for the installation in general, it really has nothing to do with the appliance being installed (or not!).

Kind Regards, John

 

[deadshort]

What does that mean ?

DS

 

[sdousley]

Hi All

Thanks for all your responses.

I've taken a scan of the document the mother in law was left when they delivered. In it, they state that the oven wasn't installed as the fuse was 30 amp, when 32 amp was required.

Untitled

• sdousley
• 9 Apr 2015
• 1

I've done a bit of research online, and from what I can find, the change from 30 to 32 amp fuse sizes was to standardise fuse sizes across europe. It states that the oven will more than likely be ok otherwise (obviously I guess this assumes suitable wiring/fuse box etc).

I've done a few calculations based on the data in the back page of the manual for the cooker, and in here it states the wattage for each element in the cooker, with a total maximum load of 8500W, which is around 37A by my calculation, so surely the requirement for a 32A fuse (over a 30A) makes little difference as this could be blown should she have everything set to max at the same time.

 

[EFLImpudence]

That reason is completely ludicrous and shows total ignorance on the part of the installer.

 

[deadshort]

Yes, I Can't Be Arse'd, the five to five syndrome !


DS

 

[EFLImpudence]

37A is the total of all the elements and is not the value determined as the design current because they will be switching on and off with their thermostats.
For cookers we apply 'diversity' to allow for this.
The formula is:
the first 10A plus 30% of the remainder, i.e. 10 + 8.1 = 18.1A.

30A was the value of the fuse used before 32A MCBs were introduced so makes absolutely no difference.

 

[JohnW2]

What does that mean ?

If that's directed at me, what part of what I wrote requires clarification?

Kind Regards, John

 

[deadshort]

Sorry john, it is a question, which i would appreciate clarification on, however, i am happy to ponder as i have the time.


Regards,

DS