no earth in lighting circuit

[google]

HI. Just come cross job an old consumer unit and i have upgraded to RCBO and realised there is no CPC in lighting circuit will it pass the 18th edition.

 

[flameport]

No CPC is not compliant with the 18th edition. It didn't comply with the 17th, 16th, 15th or 14th either.

It could be noted as a departure, provided there are no class I items connected to the circuit and appropriate warning labels are added to the consumer unit.
The real solution is rewiring the circuit, as no CPC makes it at least 55 years old.

 

[google]

It could be noted as a departure, provided there are no class I items connected to the circuit and appropriate warning labels are added to the consumer unit.
The real solution is rewiring the circuit, as no CPC makes it at least 55 years old.

you mean will not pass NICEIC for new CU till rewire the lighting

 

[Taylortwocities]

you mean will not pass NICEIC

Think you might need to explain that a little more. Are you using this job to be assessed before you become a NICEIC DI?

 

[google]

Think you might need to explain that a little more. Are you using this job to be assessed before you become a NICEIC DI?

no i have already passed it 4 weeks ago home but i just not too sure about the job i came cross and this will be my 1st time issue a certificate

 

[ericmark]

1966 the rules on lighting and earths changed. I know parents house 1954 had rubber cable and needed a rewire, and properties that old also span the plastic cables where the plasticizer leached out making them brittle and aluminium cables of Ian Smith era, when copper was short, the problem arises if the cables are disturbed, and one needs to be very careful inspecting as so easy for the inspection to result in an immediate rewire being required, I felt I was walking on egg shells with my parents house as my dad refused point blank to have house re-wired, he's words were you can do it when I'm gone, which I did.

The electrical safety council did say in their best practice guides sticking a notice on the consumer unit was good enough, but the latest revision has removed that, and it no longer gives advice on that.

Technically the BS 7671 gives the design date at which it complies, so the question is if renewing a consumer unit updates all after it? I would say no, but I am not issuing a compliance certificate, I can clearly on an installation certificate include limitations as to what it covers, so I as a non scheme member could renew a consumer unit after notifying the LABC and it would be OK if they pass it. I can also fit German sockets, but once you become a scheme member you have to follow their rules. So I would say only person who can tell you is NICEIC as to what they permit. What is the point of being a member if you don't use their help line.

 

[winston1]

German sockets are unshuttered. Are you so sure they would be allowed?

 

[JohnW2]

German sockets are unshuttered. Are you so sure they would be allowed?

Eric has this idea that it is acceptable to wire a UK installation according to the requirements of some other country's regulations - but I'm not really sure where that comes from.

 

[plugwash]

I believe it came from approved document P. Specifically, the original version of approved document P said (empahsis mine).

0.2 A way of satisfying the fundamental principles would be to follow:
a. the technical rules described in the bodyof BS 7671:2001 as amended or in an equivalent standard approved by a member of the EEA; and
b. guidance given in installation manuals that are consistent with BS 7671:2001, such as:
i. the IEE (Institution of Electrical Engineers) On-Site Guide;
ii. the series of IEE Publications, Guidance Notes Nos 1 to 7.

That text is present in both the "2006 edition" and the "2006 edition incorporating 2010 amendments", however there does not seem to be any corresponding statement in the "2013 edition".

 

[JohnW2]

I believe it came from approved document P. Specifically, the original version of approved document P said (empahsis mine). .... That text is present in both the "2006 edition" and the "2006 edition incorporating 2010 amendments", however there does not seem to be any corresponding statement in the "2013 edition".

Ah, yes ... I thought there was something like that in Approved Doc P, but, befgore I replied to winston, I only looked in the 2013 version and, as you say, it doesn't appear to be there.

It does seem a little odd that, as winston implied, that would have allowed UK installations that were clearly non-compliant with BS7671 - but, in any event, it seems that they may not be suggesting that. Mind you, eric is in Wales, where the 2013 (England only) version of the Approved Document does not 'exist', so maybe he's right that the document appropriate to his location still does say that!

In any event, of course, there is no actual compulsion to follow any set of regulations, if one can find some other way of arguing (e.g. 'from basic principles') that an installation complies with Part P.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

Eric has this idea that it is acceptable to wire a UK installation according to the requirements of some other country's regulations - but I'm not really sure where that comes from.

German sockets can be shuttered but they are not polarised, so under BS 7671 not allowed, as to now we have left EU may be no longer allowed, but when we were part of EU we had to permit wiring to any other EU standard, the law did not say must be to British standard.

As to now we have left EU that is still true not sure, it does seem the new landlord EICR is based on BS 7671 only which would not have been permitted before we left.

 

[JohnW2]

German sockets can be shuttered but they are not polarised, so under BS 7671 not allowed, as to now we have left EU may be no longer allowed, but when we were part of EU we had to permit wiring to any other EU standard, the law did not say must be to British standard.

'The law' never has, and still doesn't, say that UK electrical installations have to comply with 'British' (or any other) Standards.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

German sockets can be shuttered but they are not polarised,

It doesn't matter as long as an appropriate OPD is on the line conductor.

 

[JohnW2]

It doesn't matter as long as an appropriate OPD is on the line conductor.

I suppose that depends upon what you mean by 'matters'.

In terms of equipment plugged into such a socket, there would presumably be at least some 'relevance' if the equipment employed SP switching, wouldn't there?

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

No, I don't think so.

Neutral switching is allowed inside appliances.