No one near me wants this job - New ground rod

Well if you are reying on an RCD (which is almost always the case with an TT earth rod or plae etc) then an Earth Electrode tester and an Earth Loop tester is probably the best way to consider. ... You also need to consider the variation that might occour throughout the year (or its lifetime!).
Above 200 ohms should cause concern but above 100 ohms would be a better benchmark. ... Around here 50 to 60 ohms is usually achieveable ....
All true - and I think most of us would like to see less than 100 Ω - not the least because, as you imply, the figure might increase appreciably over time, and particularly during periods of very dry weather.

However, to put things into some perspective, even if supply voltage were as low as 216.2 V (the lowest 'permissible') the EFLI (hence the rod's resistance/impedance) would have to be above 7,000 Ω to prevent RCDs working as they should.

Kind Regards, John
 
Yes John.
But it`s like as me old grandad used to say when drinking pints with his pals in the pub - "Never trust a man who drinks halves!"
 
, I am not really worried about type AC RCDs as they are secondary protection, but with a TT supply I would be changing to type A at least.
with TT I`d be worried about the 7% possible failure rate and have two RCDs in tandem (hopefully different locations if one is a kitchen)
 
with TT I`d be worried about the 7% possible failure rate and have two RCDs in tandem (hopefully different locations if one is a kitchen)
That "7%" figure has been knocking around for very many years and I think was based on a fairly limited survey (and, I believe, not even in UK, and probably related to 'slightly out-of-spec' as well as 'not working at all'). I would therefore suggest that we "don't really know".

It sounds as if you probably would not have similar worries with TN - does that mean that you have reason to believe that the 'failure' rate of ('essentially untestable') MCBs is less than 7% (or whatever)?

Having said all that, I cannot knock the concept of redundancy in 'safety' systems - so could not argue against having pairs of RCDs (or MCBs) in series. However, whether the risk of faults being un-cleared by faulty devices (RCDs or MCBs) is high enough to justify such a practice is, I would have thought, pretty debatable.

Kind Regards, John
 
That "7%" figure has been knocking around for very many years and I think was based on a fairly limited survey (and, I believe, not even in UK, and probably related to 'slightly out-of-spec' as well as 'not working at all'). I would therefore suggest that we "don't really know".

It sounds as if you probably would not have similar worries with TN - does that mean that you have reason to believe that the 'failure' rate of ('essentially untestable') MCBs is less than 7% (or whatever)?

Having said all that, I cannot knock the concept of redundancy in 'safety' systems - so could not argue against having pairs of RCDs (or MCBs) in series. However, whether the risk of faults being un-cleared by faulty devices (RCDs or MCBs) is high enough to justify such a practice is, I would have thought, pretty debatable.

Kind Regards, John
Yes John I agree with all of your points there.

Yes surveys are limited so it`s a guess at best.

RCD failure is not working to spec not just non functioning at all therefore could still save a life or worst effects anyways.

No we do not test MCBs out in the field, we rely on type testing - how accurate is that?
 
Yes John I agree with all of your points there. ... Yes surveys are limited so it`s a guess at best.
That's obviously true of any sort of surveys in general. However, in thi case I think we're talking about one small servery, conducted very many years ago, in a foreign country, so i don't think it should be regarded as anything but a major 'guess'!
RCD failure is not working to spec not just non functioning at all therefore could still save a life or worst effects anyways.
Sure, but the "30 mA" spec is merely a semi-arbitrary 'compromise' (between safety and convenience), in the face of something which 'varies'. One could argue that one which did not trip until, say, 32 mA, might not 'save a life' which would have been saved by one which tripped at 30 mA - but that will to some extent be 'balanced'/'cancelled' by the fact that one which (as is common) trips at 25 mA might 'save a life' which might not have been saved if it has not tripped until the (required by spec) 30 mA!
No we do not test MCBs out in the field, we rely on type testing - how accurate is that?
I'm sure it's accurate enough within its own context, but it tells one nothing definite about how the devices behave in service 'in the field'. Given that, as far as I am aware, a substantial proportion of out-of-spec (or not working at all) RCDs are in that state because of 'stiction', I might guess that the same thing might be at least as common with MCBs - possibly more common since, unlike RCDs, they cannot be regularly tested/'exercised' by use of a test button.

It's not something I lose any sleep over, but it would not surprise me if MCBs becoming 'faulty' (out-of-spec) were actually just as common with MCBs as with RCDs, yet people (I would say 'naively') get concerned about the RCDs but not the MCBs, seemingly because we can test the in-service RCDs (hence identify the faulty ones) but not the MCBs ! In other words, they are seemingly more 'comfortable' when they bury their heads in the sand :-)

Kind Regards, John
 
Sure, but the "30 mA" spec is merely a semi-arbitrary 'compromise' (between safety and convenience), in the face of something which 'varies'. One could argue that one which did not trip until, say, 32 mA, might not 'save a life' which would have been saved by one which tripped at 30 mA - but that will to some extent be 'balanced'/'cancelled' by the fact that one which (as is common) trips at 25 mA might 'save a life' which might not have been saved if it has not tripped until the (required by spec) 30 mA!
I would be more worried about the 40 mS trip time. I know my RCDs did trip at less than 40 mS as I did have a tester, but when I found a horizontal wired going around 4 right-angle bends, so not in a permitted zone, with a pair of hacksaw blades that I was using to cut a channel for a water pipe the hard way, it knocked me out.

I would have thought my falling to the ground likely disconnected me in less than 40 mS anyway. In other words having a RCD did not help.

Also, it would not have mattered if 30 mA or 300 mA it would have still tripped.

In the main we hope the 30 mA will cause it to trip before we touch anything, so water leakage for example will cause a trip before anyone touches a live item.

When I came to work on my fathers house, I found no sign of any earth other than for the GPO party line, there must have been one, when I was a boy I ruptured a 13 amp fuse when I made an error and shorted line to earth, but 40 years latter could not find a sign of it ever existing.

However, the attempts to fit a 30 mA RCD failed, could not stop it tripping, due to rubber insulated wire degrading, so there must have been enough of an earth to cause the imbalance large enough to trip the RCD.

The test button on a RCD can be between line and neutral and not involve an earth, so it does not prove it will trip with an earth fault. But the socket tester 1778302593972.png both tests RCD to earth so shows it will work, and does a loop test so gives a reasonable indication as to how good the earth rod is. It has three lights, better than 1.8Ω better than 92Ω and over 92Ω not as many options as the Martindale tester, but as already said in the main 92Ω is good enough for an earth rod. To test the RCD there are cheaper testers 1778303307594.png but they don't test time or loop impedance, but at £15 what do you expect? The Kewtech Loopcheck 107 13A Advanced Socket Tester 230V AC is better than 1.8Ω and better than 93Ω or worst than 93Ω so nearly the same as the TIS one.

In both cases the paperwork tells you to check if over 1.8Ω with this from Kewtech
Flashing amber LED with warble tone indicates the incoming mains should be checked to see if the system is using an earth rod for protection. Safety earth path is between 1.80Ω and 92Ω. If the system is protected by an earth rod then
an RCD should be present.

Yes better with a loop testing giving a reading in ohms, but all three Plug in units Kewtech, TIS, and Martindale will all show if the earth rod is good enough to work the RCD.
 
Those "Simple" plug in types do have their uses yes, etter than not having one or than using the old "Bang Bang 240 test" that some seem to use.
It will indicate whether you seem to have or not to have an "Earth" of some kind and the newer ones tend to be much better than the older ones to some degree as well. The plugtop and two neons and three resistors we used to make ourselves had some use at times too, as said before, etter than nothing (sometimes).
Every little helps I suppose yet proper test gear is wwhat should be used.

Certainly a little better than wetting two fingers then pressing two terminals, one each finger, and shouting ouch!
 
I would be more worried about the 40 mS trip time.
If one is concerned about 'personal protection' (RCD operating as a result of a current passing through a human body) then there obviously has to be a threshold beyond which one would 'worry' - but the actual threshold chosen (be it 31 mS, 35 mS, 40 mS or whatever) is not much more than 'arbitrary'.
.... Also, it would not have mattered if 30 mA or 300 mA it would have still tripped. ... In the main we hope the 30 mA will cause it to trip before we touch anything, so water leakage for example will cause a trip before anyone touches a live item.
Quite. This is where RCDs definitely have value (in clearing faults before anyone has a chance to get a shock) - and, as you say, the trip threshold is then pretty irrelevant.
 
Quite. This is where RCDs definitely have value (in clearing faults before anyone has a chance to get a shock) - and, as you say, the trip threshold is then pretty irrelevant.
As in, the fault clears (or has time to clear) before someone is touching something, whereas we always assume for personal protection the fault occours when someone is already touching it, can make a difference and that difference could be life saving or injury limiting to some degree.

The limits and duration are taken from various research instances and experiments and include a good dose of qualified assumptions/intelligent guesswork as being at best 95% ish of saving your life rather than not saving it. Perhaps.
 
As in, the fault clears (or has time to clear) before someone is touching something, whereas we always assume for personal protection the fault occours when someone is already touching it, can make a difference and that difference could be life saving or injury limiting to some degree.
Exactly - and, although many/most people seem to assume that the latter (tripping because someone is receiving a shock) is the main 'value' of RCDs, I feel sure that the former (clearing a fault before anyone gets a shock) is far more important (in terms of potentially saving lives and preventing serious injuries). In relation to low impedance faults, in a TN installation an MCB will probably clear the fault more-or-less as quickly as an RCD, but RCDs will trip in response to faults of sufficiently high impedance that an MCB might never trip.
The limits and duration are taken from various research instances and experiments and include a good dose of qualified assumptions/intelligent guesswork as being at best 95% ish of saving your life rather than not saving it. Perhaps.
There is obviously a very serious limitation to the sort of research into this that can be done (ethically) in humans, but a fair bit has been done over the years, one way or another, to supplement the much larger about of research that has been done in non-human animals.

However, even if one could do as much human research as one would like, one would still be 'stuck' with the very considerable amount of variation between individuals. As I've said before, I've seen plenty of people whose hearts are so electrically unstable that they are forever at risk (often without realising) of 'spontaneously' developing lethal heart rhythm abnormalities (a.k.a. 'dropping dead') - so, in such people, a shock of a milliamp or two for just a few milliseconds can enough to be 'the final straw'. At the other extreme, I'm sure that there are some people whose hearts can survive a relatively high current for quite 'long' (in comparison with 30 mS) period of time.

Most people are obviously between those two extremes, making it very difficult to decide what threshold to adopt for 'protection'. Were it not for the problems in undertaking human research, one could determine the distribution of (pretty widely varying) responses to shocks in a fairly large number of people - and then estimate, statistically, the RCD threshold that would be appropriate to 'protect' XX% (e.g. 95%) of the population from fatal outcomes. However, as I've said, we can't do that, so we are left with something closer to guesswork when trying to decide on a 'threshold' that would, at least theoretically, give 'protection' to a reasonable proportion of 'shock victims'.

Kind Regards, John
 

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