No RCD on a CU ?

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I had to visit a friend's rented out small flat a couple of days ago to look at his water heating.

His flat was built in 1909 and the electrical system was very antiquated indeed.

During 2020 he had a new consumer unit fitted. It looks pretty cheap and the only obvious brand name seems to be "Fuse Box".

However, that is not the point. I was under the impression that all kitchen circuits now needed to be supplied via an RCD trip and on a small system like that with only four MCBs that would usually be via a main switch incorporating an RCD trip. However that one has NO RCD at all.

He seemed to think that the installer was a properly qualified electrician.

Am I correct to expect an RCD on every installation and to think that this installer was something of a rogue?
 
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I don't think so but as you pointed that out I will get the tennant to send me a photo of the consumer unit.

Yes, it was always hoped that the lighting would be on a non RCD protected circuit so that you could still see to look for whatever had tripped the circuit.
 
I suspect they are not MCBs, but RCBOs.

At a glance, they can look similar - but the small test button on RCBOs prove the point.
 
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Very likely RCBOs. It's no longer considered the "done thing" to put a whole domestic property on one RCD and for an installation that small the cost savings from a dual-rcd setup vs RCBOs are likely negligable.
 
PartID_CU.jpg
Not that easy to tell between MCB and RCBO. Test button is the give away, a RCBO has a test button.

As to need to have RCD protection, not sure? With a TT supply yes, a RCD is needed, but it is secondary protection, and unless bonding has been removed in the bathroom, with a TN supply, although I would fit RCD protection, and one would expect to comply with scheme providers requirements one could not change a CU without RCD protection, BS 7671 is not law, and not having one does not really make the property providential dangerous, unless one starts poking around in bits one should leave well alone.

I think all rental property should have RCBO protection, to give the tenant protection if he does some thing daft, and also unlikely to trip in error. However don't think you can force the landlord to fit it.

But not to fit it in 2020 it would need the owner to register the work with the local authority building control (LABC) and a copy of the installation certificate would need to be given to the tenant, he should have a completion certificate, he would not get a compliance certificate as it does not comply the BS 7671 current in 2020.

When I thought an electrician had failed to fit a socket to an RCD protected circuit, if I removed the cover to look I would be interfering with the work done, so I used my RCD test kit, which showed it did not trip within the time or current permitted, and told the firm it had failed to trip and asked for a copy of the minor works. Without owners permission you can't go poking around to see what has been done, all you can do is test.
 
View attachment 295550Not that easy to tell between MCB and RCBO. Test button is the give away, a RCBO has a test button.

As to need to have RCD protection, not sure? With a TT supply yes, a RCD is needed, but it is secondary protection, and unless bonding has been removed in the bathroom, with a TN supply....
I get a bit lost with the rest of your paragraph, but current regs obviously require RCD protection of essentially all sockets, all lighting circuits and most buried cables, to name but a few things (and not leave much! ) - even in a TN installation, don't they?

Kind Regards, John
 
current regs obviously require RCD protection of essentially all sockets, all lighting circuits and most buried cables, to name but a few things (and not leave much! ) - even in a TN installation, don't they?
Yes correct, but regulations are not law, if I pay my fee to LABC they can issue a completion certificate even if it does not comply with BS 7671, which is what you need to do if for example you wanted to install German sockets in the house, as our regulations don't permit them, but in 2020 we were still in the EU so the LABC had to permit them, even if BS 7671 did not.

It seems unlikely you would persuade a LABC inspector to allow you not to fit RCD's in some form, however the one time I used the LABC route, they never inspected the completed job, so they would have been unaware if I had not fitted RCD protection other than the installation certificate which would show no trip times for the RCD.

But
I will get the tennant to send me a photo of the consumer unit.
So there will be a copy of the EIC or EICR with the tenant if in England, which should show if RCD of some type is fitted.
it was always hoped that the lighting would be on a non RCD protected circuit so that you could still see to look for whatever had tripped the circuit.
Not any more, if there are lights in the bathroom they need RCD protection, even if wired in Ali-tube so the cable buried in wall did not need it.

It seems to me flawed to have a home so if any one gets a shock from some thing supplied from a socket outlet, they will also be plunged into darkness, and back in 2008 BS 7671 said:-
Every installation shall be divided into circuits, as necessary, to:
(iii) take account of danger that may arise from the failure of a single circuit such as a lighting circuit
(iv) reduce the possibility of unwanted tripping of RCDs due to excessive protective conductor currents produced by equipment in normal operation

There was an argument at the time that a RCD did not form a circuit, and traditionally the 100 mA RCD used with TT supplies did have one RCD for all circuits, as did the ELCB-v before it. But the circuit = An assembly of electrical equipment supplied from the same origin and protected against overcurrent by the same protective device(s).

And the RCD is current operated, and if the current differential goes over the stated limit, it trips, so my English puts it as an overcurrent device.

Of course the DNO fuse is also an over current device, but the MCB/RCBO after the fuse ensure the DNO fuse will not normally rupture due to a circuit over load. But there is in the main nothing after the RCD which will trip faster and with less current to the pair normally fitted in the consumer unit, yes I have a 10 mA socket, but the time is still 40 mS so both the 10 mA and 30 mA would trip for most faults.

So I fail to see how a two RCD consumer unit has complied with the regulations since 2008, however it has been pointed out many times that many people don't get nuisance tripping, even with 4 circuits on the same RCD, we should test the leakage and it should be less than 9 mA, but until a few months ago I did not have a meter able to measure that low, most clamp on meters seem to show 0.01 amp, but few show 0.001 amp, and the insulation resistance measurement is useless for this, as it measured with DC, and we use AC which can have capacitive and inductive linking, as shown many times when LED lamps still glow a little when switched off.

I know total leakage on my house is around the 20 mA mark, easy to put clamp meter around the tails, I have never opened the CU to see what each circuit measures. Since split between 14 RCBO's unlikely any one is over the 9 mA, (1/3 of RCBO rating) more worrying is the 12 mA DC, but it is so hard to zero the clamp on with DC measurement not really sure that is a true reading, but I have all type AC RCBO's although they said type B on the boxes, clearly referring to curve B.
 
Yes correct, but regulations are not law, ...
Indeed, but if we are not to advise people on the basis of what the 'Wiring Regulations' (which are no 'law') say, what basis would you suggest for our advice?
if I pay my fee to LABC they can issue a completion certificate even if it does not comply with BS 7671, which is what you need to do if for example you wanted to install German sockets in the house, as our regulations don't permit them, but in 2020 we were still in the EU so the LABC had to permit them, even if BS 7671 did not.
You often say that, but I do doubt that, even when we were in the EU, any BCO (who seem to be 'laws unto themselves', and don't even have to follow BS 7671 if they don't want to) would ever have approved something which was permitted by regulation in other EU countries but not by UK regulations.
Not any more, if there are lights in the bathroom they need RCD protection, even if wired in Ali-tube ...
The current regs essentially say that lights in any room (not just bathrooms) have to be RCD protected. As for bathrooms, there has for a long time been a requirement for RCD protection of any circuit 'serving' (or even merely 'passing through') a bathroom.
It seems to me flawed to have a home so if any one gets a shock from some thing supplied from a socket outlet, they will also be plunged into darkness, ....
That depends what you are comparing with. If I had to choose between being plunged into darkness because an RCD had limited the duration of a shock I was experiencing to a handful of milliseconds and, on the other hand, having the light stay on but with the shock I was suffering going on 'indefinitely', I know which I would choose :)
There was an argument at the time that a RCD did not form a circuit ...
I'm not sure that anyone but you has ever thought or suggested that an RCD did 'form a circuit' - sensing a residual current (L-N current imbalance) is not, in hardly anyone's eyes, 'over-current protection', even though there is obviously a threshold of residual current beyond which the device will operate !
So I fail to see how a two RCD consumer unit has complied with the regulations since 2008 ...
'The regulations' (BS 7671 have never 'insisted' on 'separation' of circuits, since there can be other ways of addressing the concerns that the regulations have. In the above context, I presume that the reg you are talking about is ...
314.1 Every installation shall be divided into circuits, as necessary, to:
.............. (iii) take account of hazards that may arise from the failure of a single circuit such as a lighting circuit
... and I would suggest that it would be very hard for anyone to reject the argument that the presence of emergency lighting fully addressed that 'taking into account', and therefore that it was acceptable to have lighting and sockets circuits (serving the same location) protected by the same RCD (if there were emergency lighting installed).

Kind Regards, John
 
Yes correct, but regulations are not law,
Unlike Part P of the building regulations (and indeed unlike most other laws) the new regulations on electricity in private rented properties in England (the OP's profile indicates they are in London, so the property) specifically references BS7671:2018

Now IIRC BS7671 has a sentance saying that installations designed to previous editions are not nessacerally unsafe for continued use. This gives some wiggle room for existing installations but I think you would really struggle to justify doing a CU replacement in a rented property and not installing a CU that meets the requirements of BS7671:2018 or newer.
 
Unlike Part P of the building regulations (and indeed unlike most other laws) the new regulations on electricity in private rented properties in England (the OP's profile indicates they are in London, so the property) specifically references BS7671:2018
Indeed - UK legislators have generally kept away from explicitly referring to Standards, or any other external things over which they have no control, and which can change at any time. This particular legislation not only does that, but actually references a specific edition of BS 7671, which seems even stranger!
Now IIRC BS7671 has a sentance saying that installations designed to previous editions are not nessacerally unsafe for continued use.
It does, indeed (adding 'even if they do not comply with the new edition in every respect').
This gives some wiggle room for existing installations but I think you would really struggle to justify doing a CU replacement in a rented property and not installing a CU that meets the requirements of BS7671:2018 or newer.
I'm not sure that there is any wiggle room when it comes to 'replacements'. In addition to saying that work designed to previous editions "is not necessarily unsafe for continued use", it also makes it clear that all 'installations' designed after the effective date of the latest edition has to comply with the requirements of that edition - and I have always assumed that that also applies to 'new work' done on existing installations.

Kind Regards, John
 
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It seems likely it will transpire that RCBO's are fitted and @Agile has not noticed the test button. There is no wriggle room if installed by a scheme member, only if inspected by LABC, who can allow what they like it seems.

It does not matter what, the question is if LABC inspectors miss some thing, who is wrong, the installer for missing it, or the LABC inspector? When the homes were built too low in Ruthin so they flooded, the builder blamed the LABC saying he paid them a lot of money to ensure errors like this were not made, he admitted his surveyor had made an error, but said he relied on the LABC inspector to raise such over sights at the time.

At the moment we have the same in Turkey, where it seems the government inspectors were not doing their job, and allowed builders to get away with not using enough rebar. It seems amnesties were given for buildings not complying, rather than do it again and do it properly.
 
There is no wriggle room if installed by a scheme member, only if inspected by LABC, who can allow what they like it seems.
My point was that there is (in the situation being discussed) no wriggle room as regards compliance/conformity with BS 7671, even though an LABC may, at least theoretically, 'accept' something which is not compliant.

For example, the 'landlord legislation' requires compliance with BS 7671, and that would remain the case even if an LABC had 'accepted' something which was not compliant (e.g. a new CU).

Kind Regards, John
 
I'm not sure that there is any wiggle room when it comes to 'replacements'.
I'm not sure either, strictly speaking it's not the CU itself that doesn't comply but the circuits fed from it. So you could make an argument that the new work complies and that the existing stuff is left in a state of compliance that is no worse than before.

It's not an argument that I would want to be making though.
 

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