No RCD on a CU ?

I'm not sure either, strictly speaking it's not the CU itself that doesn't comply but the circuits fed from it. So you could make an argument that the new work complies and that the existing stuff is left in a state of compliance that is no worse than before. It's not an argument that I would want to be making though.
I would think that attempting that argument would probably be 'chancing one's luck' in a big way! After all, it is what is in the CU which determines whether or not (and to what extent) there is an adequate "division of the installation" (into circuits) - the circuits themselves have no control over that.

However, as I recently wrote, t may sometimes be possible to argue that such division into circuits is not actually required to satisfy 314, since measures such as emergency lighting are sometimes adequate to address the underlying concerns without the need for such 'division'.

Kind Regards, John
 
Until Brexit we had to allow homes wired to any EU standard, not sure now, so can't answer question.
As I recently wrote, although you have been asserting that for a long time, I do wonder to what extent it is actually true.

Kind Regards, John
 
I do know that the part about other EU standards was in the initial version of approved document P, but was removed some time before brexit.
 
I do know that the part about other EU standards was in the initial version of approved document P, but was removed some time before brexit.
Indeed so. Albeit Approved Docs are not 'law', there was such a statement in the 2006 version of Approved Doc P, namely that one way of satisfying the requirements of Part P of the Building Regs (which is law) was, then, to follow ......

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However, unless I'm missing it I can find no equivalent statement in the 2013 version (for England).

Mind you, to be fair to eric, he is in Wales, where, for what it's worth, the 2006 version of Approved Doc P still applies - so maybe he is right for his country! (although, of course, that presumably means that, if he wished to stick to UK regulations, he would, even today, only have to comply with BS7671:2001, and not any subsequent versions/amendments :-) ).

Kind Regards, John
 
Whether that sentence is still there or not makes very little difference. BS7671 and the majority of other standards used in the EU and elsewhere are all based on IEC60364, so the content will be substantially similar other than where parts of IEC60364 have been omitted or where country specific items have been added, such as UK ring circuits.
 
Whether that sentence is still there or not makes very little difference. BS7671 and the majority of other standards used in the EU and elsewhere are all based on IEC60364, so the content will be substantially similar other than where parts of IEC60364 have been omitted or where country specific items have been added, such as UK ring circuits.
Yes, that is largely true. However, the issue most often cited by eric is the use of sockets/plugs which are used in other EU countries but not in the UK, and certainly are not to BS1363, BS546 or BS EN 60309-2 - and I think it would be difficult to argue that they are compliant with ('acceptable to') BS7671, wouldn't it?

In passing, I'm not actually sure that the presence of that sentence ever made much 'difference', ssince given that Approve Doc P is not part of the law, I'm not sure that onecould ever have safely 'relied' upon it.

Kind Regards, John
 
I would think that attempting that argument would probably be 'chancing one's luck' in a big way!
In this particular case I agree, but there are IMO situations with no good options.

Consider for example a house with a switchfuse in the meter box, feeding a submain wired in concealed T&E to a consumer unit that feeds all the circuits for the house. The switchfuse is burned up and not in a fit state for continued use. Do you.

1. Replace the switch fuse like for like. Leave the property no more of less compliant than it was before.
2. Replace the switch fuse with a device incorprating a RCD. Satisfying the requirements for RCD protection of concealed cables, but leaving the whole installation on a single RCD.
3. Replace the whole submain with SWA, massively expanding the scope of the work.
 
In this particular case I agree, but there are IMO situations with no good options.
That's certainly very true, if one takes 'practicalities' (e.g. complexity/cost/disruption of work etc.) into account. The option that would be 'fully regs-compliant' is usually clear enough
Consider for example a house with a switchfuse in the meter box, feeding a submain wired in concealed T&E to a consumer unit that feeds all the circuits for the house. The switchfuse is burned up and not in a fit state for continued use. Do you.
1. Replace the switch fuse like for like. Leave the property no more of less compliant than it was before.
2. Replace the switch fuse with a device incorprating a RCD. Satisfying the requirements for RCD protection of concealed cables, but leaving the whole installation on a single RCD.
3. Replace the whole submain with SWA, massively expanding the scope of the work.
"Do you ....?" is not really a simple question. I know what I would do if it were the installation in my house, but that's probably not what you are asking ;)

It goes without saying that your (3) is the option which brings at least some of the installation into compliance with current regs. However, given that "regulations are not retrospective", I'm not at all sure that your (1) is necessarily unacceptable. For example, if you replaced a damaged switch or FCU, would you feel obliged to all address issues relating to a buried cable connected to it (e..g not RCD-protected, if it needed to be, and/or not in a 'safe zone') ?

Your (2) would probably be the 'worst' approach in some people's eyes, since, whilst it would address RCD protection of the T+E, those who get excited about lack of division of circuits amongst RCDs might argue that you had made the installation less compliant than it had previously been!

[ I would also add that I would have thought it very probable that the T+E from meter box to CU was not all within 'safe zones' - in which case even adding RCD protection [per your (2) ] would not bring the cable into compliance ]

Kind Regards, John
 
1. Replace the switch fuse like for like. Leave the property no more of less compliant than it was before.
This would clearly be OK as it is the design date that matters, not the installation date.
2. Replace the switch fuse with a device incorprating a RCD. Satisfying the requirements for RCD protection of concealed cables, but leaving the whole installation on a single RCD.
This would be altering the design, so would need to comply with current edition, and one would need to measure leakage and do a risk assessment.

With my own house I know the combined differential for all circuits is around 20 mA I out of interest when I got my new clamp on, tested it around both tails to see the combined leakage, we are for a 30 mA RCD allowed 9 mA, so with my home this would not be an option.

However I have lived in a caravan with two 30 mA RCD's in series and had no real problem, what we must remember is AC can transfer with capacitive and inductive leaking, so using an insulation tester tells us very little as to if the 9 mA is likely to be exceeded, and until I got a clamp on to measure DC the first increment on my clamp on was 10 mA the next being 20 mA and I could have not been reasonable sure if an installation was within the 9 mA (one 1/3 of the RCD trip value) so could not know how likely nuisance trips are.

3. Replace the whole submain with SWA, massively expanding the scope of the work.
This is of course an option, be it alitube or SWA, and is what was done with my mothers house, the house at the time still had 1954 wiring, the council wanted to re-do the kitchen so she could use it in a wheel chair, so work tops were lowered and the kitchen needed wiring alterations, I had earlier tried to fit RCD's and they had to be removed as would trip on a regular basis, at that time they were not a requirement, so replacing with an isolator was OK, only the shower was RCD protected. But by time kitchen was done RCD was required, so the SWA ran outside the house from the original CU with a 45 amp MCB to a sub CU with all RCBO's.

The use of SWA resulted in no problem running the cable exterior to the house.

But if you are going to alter any design, then you need to do the risk assessment for the whole effected installation, I have seen where some one has altered a design without first testing and have split the lighting for example upper and lower floor as the ceiling rose only rated 5 or 6 amp, and they have fitted silly down lighters in the kitchen, so need more power. Fitting a 10 amp MCB would not comply as ceiling rose used as junction box, so they have found two cables in the CU so split them, on to 2 x 6 amp MCB's, however the result was a borrowed neutral with the stairs two way lighting, which was only found when it came to fitting RCD's. Even then seen it where so called electricians have simply put both MCB's for lights on the same RCD, this must be worst, as the first electrician who split them may have possibly not realised the two way switches borrowed a line in one two gang switch, but when it tripped the RCD the fault was clear, and so was cure, putting both circuits back on same MCB would have just returned to original design. Although using kinetic light switches would have been better.

But however it is done, when one alters a design, one must ensure it complies with regulations current at the time of the new design. And even splitting upper and lower floors lighting circuits is altering the design, as of course is swapping a single pendent lamp for multi down lighters.

We should of course raise minor works certificates to swap from single pendent to down lighters, what I am not sure about is if a compliance certificate is needed? Is work in the ceiling void of a kitchen considered as work in a special area? No problem in England kitchen no longer a special area, only bathrooms, but still is in Wales.
 
This would be altering the design, so would need to comply with current edition, and one would need to measure leakage and do a risk assessment.
You assert that, but I think it is actually where lot of the uncertainty arises. It is not clear, at least not to me, what extent of work/.change to a circuit is required to trigger the requirement for the entire existing installation to be brought into compliance with current regs.

Opinions will obviously vary but I would be prepared to try arguing that adding RCD protection to a circuit probably does not (should not), in itself, trigger such a requirement.

Indeed, if there were emergency lighting in place, addressing the main concern relating to all circuits being protected by the same RCD, then I would probably see no problem at all.

Kind Regards, John
 

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