Old pipework failed, whos fault ?

[malkie]

Im in my first yr as my own boss and for just over a year i had no proplems tht werent easy to sort out. I done a boiler change old floor standing to combi system i also fitted towel rail rad,new trv's and powerflushed it.

I had to use the old circs as hot and cold supplys to combi,they looked ok and was told by customers"the pipework is all under 7 years old we got it repiped when new rads went in"

I filled up it and seemed sound but got a call 3 days later to tell me the celings were damaged downstairs. I went and found the living room,parlour and kitchen celings had all been damaged and the kitchen was in a bad way as the old circs now h&cold had come apart and flooded the place.

I lifted the boards and found the pipework wasnt fairly new it was the original 28mm it had just been cut under thefloor and in the rof space and new 22m joined on to it so it looked new to the boiler and the cylinder but the same with the heatng pipes only about 50% had been renewed not all of it as id been told.

They told me to repair it all and the celings but also pay them for the damage id done,i told them that it wasnt my fault and id fix it but i wanted paying.I got a call today telling me"you will be sorry,we have started the ball rolling" (whatever that means?

Do you think am i being fair as I do write on my qoutes(old pipework can fail when changed to a sealed system and under mains pressure) any ideas boys

 

[Deleted member 105431]

fight it, you cannot guarantee their old pipework. Don't they have home insurance?

 

[mickyg]

Tell em to go forth and multiply. As long as they were aware prior to installation that old and badly installed pipework can fail under pressure then you have covered your behind. I would have took pictures of the failed pipework just in case(why exactly did it leak?). I've argued a few cases like this successfully in my shady past as a TSM for BG

 

[Deleted member 105431]

in my shady past as a TSM for BG

very shady at least you've seen the error of your ways!

 

[gasandoilman]

Yes that would be a good idea,i always tell my customers this(verbaly) makes me think i should also put it in the quote.
I do air pressure first to check when going from open vent to pressurised but if it lets by it would be hard to find if under floor..
I hd one let by but it was in the loft and could hear the air and was an easy fix...

Cant they claim on there insurance

 

[gremlin16]

i do write on my qoutes(old pipework can fail when changed to a sealed system and under mains pressure)

It seem to say you knew the existing pipe work might not take mains pressure, yet you connected up to it.
Not sure how you wangle out of that one?

When we quote for work it is clearly written that we will not be held responsible for faults relating to existing pipe work and fittings.

Do you know where the fault was located.? Can you prove the leak was due to failure on existing pipe work.

Hopefully you are insured, if so get their advice.

Good luck and hope it goes your way.

 

[powell30]

Hmmm...tough call this. At least YOU should have public liability insurance so your covered either way. As for them having house insurance all that will happen is that their isurance will cover it and then try to reclaim it off you.

My experience is to always note in quotes or in a disclaimer what the potential issues are.....never much use being told this after the event tho. If i had to call it i think you are liable......you are the expert and unfortuntely relied on hearsay and didn't actually check the piping.....even tho you said it may leak it's your word against theirs.....horrible situation and i do simpathise. i would suggest reconcilliation if possible and go and get quotes, estimates of work and materials......going to court may cost you more in the long run in time if not money.......goood luck

 

[malkie]

Thanks lads for your advice. I agree that i have been naive as i did know it might not hold but surely were all nervous when changing a old system over to a sealed system. I got a letter today telling me they want me to give them £3.500 by the end of 14 days or it will get to court.I charged them in total for a new combi,new towel rail rad,new trvs and power flush £2.800 and it took me 3 1/2 to 4 days as it wasnt a easy job and i did do a real good job. Im really gutted by his as im new in the bussiness of working for myslf and today i finished a boiler change just a conventinal swap but i flushed it and i was really nrevous about using strong chemicals on the older systems,i do have in print on qoutes the unforseen proplems that may occur due to old pipework failing when under pressure,but i just wish i never set foot in the place now anyway its a lesson learnt upto now looks like he hard way cheers

 

[Deleted member 105431]

Don't pay! Take legal advice.

 

[mickyg]

Did the letter come from a solicitor?? If not ignore it, it means diddly squat.
If you do get a solicitors letter then take legal advice. If your qoutes contain the proper warnings then your not liable. They're just trying it on.

 

[doitall]

Save any paperwork and date/sign it along with the envelope.

Ask for the name of their insurance Company

Have they paid your invoice yet.

 

[ChrisR]

You did discuss it with them, you warned them in writing that old pipework can fail when put under pressure. That's where they reassured you that the pipework wasn't very old. The implication of their statement being that the pipework should be fine. You didn't say any failure would be repaired free so there's no reason why they should think you're going to pay for it.
If they say you didn't warn them and dig their heels in, use the information about the "new pipework" as evidence of the discussion.
So they knew of a risk and let you go ahead with the work. There is no type of pipework which should burst at the pressure you're using, so it's clearly defective. You were clearly not negligent. It's like you turned the light on and the bulb went, or if you like, something sparked and caused a fire. Not your fault. It can happen. It isn't your pipe that's failed, it's theirs.

They could argue that you should have done a pressure test but it isn't the standard way of doing things. Mention that if you do a test and it fails, the result is water coming out, which is what they've got. No need to say how much water... Also, it appears that as it held for a few days, the test would NOT have shown a weakness. Arguable I know. If they mention air test that's easy - they're dangerous and not suitable for tests at the pressure you'd need.

Be careful what you say in case it does go to court. His lordship wouldn't like any intemperate language, or suggestions that you're going to do an Ian Beale (Pour concrete down the drains) every 6 months until they move house or pay up. Just be short and factual - they were warned and accepted the risk. They owe you(?) for the work you did. You didn't do anything wrong.
This sort of thing really preys on my mind out of all proportion, so if it happens to me I'll be giving it to a solicitor sooner rather than later, to let him deal with it.

I wonder exactly what BG's Ts and Cs say about that. You don't have to do what they would, but they're the dearest and if they wouldn't cover it, why should you?

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

 

[ChrisR]

Ask for the name of their insurance Company

NO WAY. That's tantamount to an admission that the failure of their pipe has something to do with you. Their insurance certainly has nothing to do with you.

If they were being nice, you could mend the pipes, give advice, etc. But they aren't, so discontinue your cooperation!

 

[malkie]

I have just had a call from their son's telling me to pay them the money back for the job and they want £2.650 for the cost of the new ceilings and for the pipework to be fixed.

I told him I will never pay the money back and as far as the ceilings go i wasnt to blame but if id been treated half ok id have got them fixed by a firm i know and id have sorted the pipework out for them and made sure the costs were met by the insurance company.

I was told to think again and quickly so i did and told him the same thing so he isnt very happy but niether am i so what shall i do

 

[Deleted member 105431]

STAND YOUR GROUND!

let them claim off house insurance for THEIR faulty pipework. they've been arseholes so they've only themselves to blame!