Parking an automatic on a hill.

[norseman]

That's where we differ. I don't see that as the best of both worlds at all! I see it as a way of trying to make up for some of the inherent deficiencies of an auto box.

And there was me thinking that such technology (as opposed to the usual basic P N R D 1 2 3 of the period) 30 years ago was pretty smart ..

As both a retired driver of HGV's & past owner of WW2 trucks with 'crash' gear-boxes I can't help but wonder what you consider to be the inherent deficiencies of an automatic that also incorporates the option of manual gear selection?

nb. with ref. to your post #56 .. kick-down delay is something I've never experienced with my old auto's & shouldn't happen if the cable is correctly adjusted.
Maybe this malady is something that is prevalent with today's electronic control systems?

 

[Mottie]

I prefer that to the wifes auto, it is an 8 speed (twin clutch type seamless change)

I’d say they were more a manual box with an automatic clutch…….

 

[Avocet]

Not if you do it because you WANT to change gears manually

Which you do.

I'm sure we're talking across purposes here? Yes, I prefer manual boxes in cars that have to change gear. I think we've established that?

If I had an auto that changed gear for me, I wouldn't like it as much.

If I had an auto where I could get rid of one of the disadvantages by changing gear manually, I would dislike it less.

If I had an auto box where I had complete control over which gear, at which revs, and when, and similar control over clutch engagement, I would love it just as much as a manual gearbox...

...because it would be a manual gearbox!

(But by then, I'd rather just pay less money, have less complication, and get a car with a manual gearbox in the first place)?

 

[Munroast]

I’d say they were more a manual box with an automatic clutch…….

I think they refer to them as 'twin clutch" VW call the DSG ? ours is an 8G-DCT
beautiful fast changing, nothing like the orrible automated manuals they stuck on peugeots where it is more of an automatically controlled gear stick


I think the dual clutch originated from tractors, that wonderful ability to change gear whilst ploughing - some amazing boxes on tractors

 

[Avocet]

And there was me thinking that such technology (as opposed to the usual basic P N R D 1 2 3 of the period) 30 years ago was pretty smart ..

As both a retired driver of HGV's & past owner of WW2 trucks with 'crash' gear-boxes I can't help but wonder what you consider to be the inherent deficiencies of an automatic that also incorporates the option of manual gear selection?

1. You still don't have complete control over which gear and when.

2. You have absolutely no control over clutch engagement (if it's an automated manual) and if it's a torque converter auto you don't even have a clutch.

3. Cost.

4. Complexity.

nb. with ref. to your post #56 .. kick-down delay is something I've never experienced with my old auto's & shouldn't happen if the cable is correctly adjusted.
Maybe this malady is something that is prevalent with today's electronic control systems?

Picture the scene... You're driving along a country road, stuck behind someone. Overtaking opportunities are few and far between. You're reading the road ahead and you can see there's a potential overtaking opportunity coming up. In a manual car, you can drop down a gear and be ready. You can do the same in an auto, but only by changing gear manually, in which case, that's part of the supposed advantage of an auto box already gone. Alternatively, you can keep it in auto mode, but then it won't even start to change down until you press the throttle far enough to trigger the kickdown!

 

[Munroast]

1. You still don't have complete control over which gear and when.

2. You have absolutely no control over clutch engagement (if it's an automated manual) and if it's a torque converter auto you don't even have a clutch.

3. Cost.

4. Complexity.



Picture the scene... You're driving along a country road, stuck behind someone. Overtaking opportunities are few and far between. You're reading the road ahead and you can see there's a potential overtaking opportunity coming up. In a manual car, you can drop down a gear and be ready. You can do the same in an auto, but only by changing gear manually, in which case, that's part of the supposed advantage of an auto box already gone. Alternatively, you can keep it in auto mode, but then it won't even start to change down until you press the throttle far enough to trigger the kickdown!

you just want to drive F-A-S-T------->>> whoosh

you're jeremy clarkson I claim my £5

 

[Avocet]

I think they refer to them as 'twin clutch" VW call the DSG ? ours is an 8G-DCT
beautiful fast changing, nothing like the orrible automated manuals they stuck on peugeots where it is more of an automatically controlled gear stick


I think the dual clutch originated from tractors, that wonderful ability to change gear whilst ploughing - some amazing boxes on tractors

They're all part of the generic group - "automated manuals". If they don't have a torque converter, they're an automated manual. And yes, some are better than others. Different manufactures have their own "marketingspeak" names for them - DSG for the VAG cars. "Selespeed" for the Italians, "Tiptronic" for some of the upmarket German brands, "Touchtronic", Dualogic", etc....

 

[Avocet]

you just want to drive F-A-S-T------->>> whoosh

you're jeremy clarkson I claim my £5

Yeah, I like to "make progress"! Living where I do, we have lots of single carriageway, twisty, hilly roads through beautiful countryside and lots of folk bimbling along, admiring the view. That's all fine by me. It's how Cumbria makes much of its living, but if I've places to be and I've seen the view before, I want to be past them and on my way, with the minimum of delay and maximum safety. I have to say, the EV is bloody brilliant for that!

 

[Brigadier]

lots of folk bimbling along, admiring the view

I can guarantee these are the same arseholes who, after such bimbling for mile upon mile of NSL, will "bimble" through every village at 38mph+ as well

 

[Mottie]

Alternatively, you can keep it in auto mode, but then it won't even start to change down until you press the throttle far enough to trigger the kickdown!

That may have been true with old three and four speed auto's but not so much nowdays. With modern six speed minimum auto's, downchanging is pretty much instantaneous. It’s got to be quicker to just floor the throttle and go, than to take your foot off the throttle, dip the clutch, change gear, lift the clutch and then floor the throttle. I know on our new automatic hybrid car, when I floor it, it’s instant downchange plus both the ICE and the electric drive are right there and it just takes off. Halfway through the overtake, there’s no need to repeat the process of an up change is needed. If manuals were better than autos, we'd still be seeing FI cars with manual gearboxes and clutches!

 

[Avocet]

That may have been true with old three and four speed auto's but not so much nowdays. With modern six speed minimum auto's, downchanging is pretty much instantaneous. It’s got to be quicker to just floor the throttle and go, than to take your foot off the throttle, dip the clutch, change gear, lift the clutch and then floor the throttle. I know on our new automatic hybrid car, when I floor it, it’s instant downchange plus both the ICE and the electric drive are right there and it just takes off. Halfway through the overtake, there’s no need to repeat the process of an up change is needed. If manuals were better than autos, we'd still be seeing FI cars with manual gearboxes and clutches!

Yes... but... You can put the manual in the right gear for the overtake before you even start to press the throttle, and have your revs already up and in the power band for when you mash the pedal. F1 "flappy paddle" stuff is really optimised for performance on every shift, so not quite the same. I imagine they'd be quite difficult to drive smoothly in traffic. Honestly though, nothing with an auto box and an ICE can hold a candle to an EV when it comes to throttle response. I used to think Mrs. Avocet's 7 speed DSG was pretty good, (at least in "Sport" mode), but honestly, when I get back in it nowadays after getting out of an EV, you can almost see the teeth marks from pure frustration, in the steering wheel!

 

[norseman]

1. You still don't have complete control over which gear and when.
2. You have absolutely no control over clutch engagement (if it's an automated manual) and if it's a torque converter auto you don't even have a clutch.
3. Cost.
4. Complexity.
Picture the scene... You're driving along a country road, stuck behind someone. Overtaking opportunities are few and far between. You're reading the road ahead and you can see there's a potential overtaking opportunity coming up. In a manual car, you can drop down a gear and be ready. You can do the same in an auto, but only by changing gear manually, in which case, that's part of the supposed advantage of an auto box already gone. Alternatively, you can keep it in auto mode, but then it won't even start to change down until you press the throttle far enough to trigger the kickdown!

Fair comment, it's each to his/her own at the end of the day.

 

[JohnD]

Yes... but... You can put the manual in the right gear for the overtake before you even start to press the throttle, and have your revs already up and in the power band for when you mash the pedal.

Like you can on my J-drive.

I sounds like you have a car with not much go. Is it a diesel turbo?

 

[Avocet]

Like you can on my J-drive.

Sure you can - but there's not much advantage in having an auto if you have to do that? (Unless you've a bad left leg and can't press a clutch)?

I sounds like you have a car with not much go. Is it a diesel turbo?

By no means quick - 2 ton, 7 seat SUV with 150 horse - it's never going to be the drag racer of choice! But against the same vehicle with the manual box in it, the same point still applies. You can drop down a gear early in the manual and be ready for the opportunity.

 

[JohnD]

Sure you can - but there's not much advantage in having an auto if you have to do that?

I don't "have" to do that.

But if I have the same desire you do, to get "in the right gear for the overtake before you even start to press the throttle"

Then I can.

I can, at whim, change the gear myself, or let the automatic do it.

I am losing nothing. Certainly not the advantage of having an automatic change gear when I wish it.