Part P Question

[Stoday]

Can you?

Where in Schedule 2B are there exemptions for those?

Paragraph 2. And the definition of "special installation". Equipment attached to an outside wall does not itself comprise an outdoor installation. This is made clear in the Approved Document part P in the additional notes on page 9. The same note also makes it clear that a socket is notifiable because you can connect a cable to it that crosses the garden.

Of course, you have to have a peculiarly pedantic frame of mind to conceive an item that's attached to the outside of an outside wall as still being inside for the purposes of part P. I can think of only one person who would have no difficulty with such a conundrum: BAS.

 

[Gees]

We have had mains electricity for years and years... Why are we not all electrocuted and / or burned to death ?

Lets face it the government have decided that we all need to pay more taxes and this whole Part "P" is just an easy way for them to make us do so...

 

[Paul_C]

they aren't but odds are they'll get to the point of connection to the ring and realise there's a big missmatch in the size of the wiring he's used and the size already there..
if connecting to an empty MCB then there's no such direct comparison available, only indirect by looking at the cable sizes in the oter MCB's..

If somebody doesn't understand enough to know that or notice the discrepancy between the size of his cable and the size of other cables in simialrly sized breakers, is he really likely to notice or worry about the discrepancy between his conductors and the one(s) already in that MCB?

The point I was making is just that there are numerous cases where if it's all about safety then the list of notifiable vs. non-notifiable works makes absolutely no sense. And that's before we even get into the way that many of the exemptions from notification in Schedule 2B are very vaguely worded.

 

[ColJack]

“special installation” means an electric floor or ceiling heating system, an outdoor lighting or electric power installation, an electricity generator, or an extra-low voltage lighting system which is not a pre-assembled lighting set bearing the CE marking referred to in regulation 9 of the Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations 1994; and

where in that does it say that equipment fixed to an outside wall is not outdoor lighting or electric power installation?

 

[Paul_C]

Paragraph 2. And the definition of "special installation". Equipment attached to an outside wall does not itself comprise an outdoor installation. This is made clear in the Approved Document part P in the additional notes on page 9. The same note also makes it clear that a socket is notifiable because you can connect a cable to it that crosses the garden.

I think that highlights yet more vagueness and inconsistency, not to mention nonsensical interpretations in the guidelines of the Approved Document.

According to the actual legislation, the relevant part of the definition of a "special installations" is "an outdoor lighting or electric power installation."

What exactly is meant by "electric power," for example? It doesn't say, but presumably was not meant to include lighting as that is mentioned explicitly.

Page 9 of the Approved Document mirrors this in (g), while (i) makes the comment you noted about fixed equipment on the outside wall of the house not being notifiable.

The notes in (j) do indeed say that the socket is notifiable, but the reasoning given makes no sense. It suggests that it's notifiable because somebody might plug a cable into it which crosses the garden. An appliance (lawn mower, hedge trimmer etc.) plugged into a socket in not covered by Part P, so would not be part of a "special installation." Besides, somebody could plug the exact same thing into a socket located just inside a doorway, but it's not arguing that a socket added there would be notifiable.

Again, the whole thing is a nonsensical mess.

 

[securespark]

that spare 40A is fine to connect it to..

Of course it is, but only if you use bellwire to feed the socket. Has your understanding of the regs gone completely awol?

 

[ColJack]

no it's at home, I'm stopping at mothers during the day to dogsit.. they're stuck in malta.. and the neighbour that was looking after the dog has gone away for a long weekend that she booked months ago..
so my copy of the regs book is at home..

 

[ebee]

"would it not be better for all electrical work, from replacing a socket anywhere in the house to running a spur etc, to be covered by Part P "

Actually it is all covered by part p , what you mean is that would it not be better if all of it was notifiable.

Yes Simply speaking it would.

But, quite understandably, they tried to relax some of it using common sense.
But of course then if you sensibly try to exempt some you get some anomolies creeping in, that is the problem.

Hard and fast draconian rules are easier to legislate for.
(Whether or not you agree with those rules are another matter).

A "CORGI" approach like they did with gas would have been simpler all round in many respects.

In my opinion - something need doing - I think many of us might well agree with that in itself - what was done and how it was done, well many might disagree with that and now we are left with the situation we have

 

[davelx]

A "CORGI" approach like they did with gas would have been simpler all round in many respects.

Certainly - it allows any [competent] DIYer to do their own gas works in their own home, with no need to notify anyone at all!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Can you?

Where in Schedule 2B are there exemptions for those?

Paragraph 2.

2. Work which—
(a) is not in a kitchen, or a special location,
(b) does not involve work on a special installation, and
(c) consists of—
(i) adding light fittings and switches to an existing circuit; or
(ii) adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit;

I see no mention of an air conditioning unit there.

And the definition of "special installation".

“special installation” means an electric floor or ceiling heating system, an outdoor lighting or electric power installation....

Hard to see how an outside security light is not outdoor lighting.

Please remember - Schedule 2B is not a list of what is notifiable, it's a list of what is not notifiable. You start with the position that the work is notifiable, because everything is notifiable unless exempted, and then you read down Schedule 2B until you find a match which makes what you are doing non-notifiable. If you reach the end without finding a match then it is notifiable.

You will not find that installing any new fixed equipment is non-notifiable, unless it is a pre-fabricated equipment set and associated flexible leads with integral plug and socket connections, and you will not find that an outside security light is non-notifiable.

Equipment attached to an outside wall does not itself comprise an outdoor installation.

It doesn't have to, but it does have to be in Schedule 2B to be non-notifiable.

This is made clear in the Approved Document part P in the additional notes on page 9.

The Approved Document is not the law.

Of course, you have to have a peculiarly pedantic frame of mind to conceive an item that's attached to the outside of an outside wall as still being inside for the purposes of part P.

I'm not trying to conceive anything of the sort. You are the one who seems to think that an outside security light is inside for the purposes of Part P.

And as for the A/C unit it's irrelevant where it is - if it is new fixed equipment, i.e. not a replacement, it does not become exempt via 1a, and if it is not a pre-fabricated equipment set and associated flexible leads with integral plug and socket connections it does not become exempt via 3c, and so you've reached the end of Schedule 2B and not found a classification which makes your A/C unit non-notifiable.

I can think of only one person who would have no difficulty with such a conundrum: BAS.

There is no conundrum, the wording of Schedule 2B is perfectly clear, and quite easy to understand, unless you approach it with the preconceived idea that you so don't want it to say what it does that you'll wriggle and twist and "interpret" it incorrectly until it does appear to say what you want it to.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Lets face it the government have decided that we all need to pay more taxes and this whole Part "P" is just an easy way for them to make us do so...

To become a registered electrician you pay money to a commercial organisation. Please explain how this counts as a tax.

An unregistered person notifying work pays a fee to a local government department in return for a specific service which is not supposed to be profit-making. Please explain how this counts as a tax.

 

[Paul_C]

And the definition of "special installation".

“special installation” means an electric floor or ceiling heating system, an outdoor lighting or electric power installation....

Hard to see how an outside security light is not outdoor lighting.

I think the problem here is the lack of definitions. As I said above, there is no definition of an outdoor "electric power installation." It sounds a simple enough term, and we might assume it to mean anything which involves any form of wiring passing through to the outside of the house.

But if that were the case, that would already include outdoor lights, so why does the definition of special installation need to refer to "outdoor lighting or electric power installation" as though lighting and electric power are two different things? Is "lighting" included just to make it clear, or is it somehow implying that "electric power" doesn't include lighting? If so, that when exactly does it mean? The regulations don't say.

So given the interpretations in the Approved Document, we're left with two possibilitites: Either the Approved Document is totally wrong in this respect, or the definition of "outdoor lighting or electric power installation" was not intended to include appliances fixed to the outside wall of the house but where the wiring goes no further.

An unregistered person notifying work pays a fee to a local government department in return for a specific service which is not supposed to be profit-making. Please explain how this counts as a tax.

Because it's an amount that the law is mandating you must pay for a service which you probably don't want in the first place. Call it a fee or a tax, it amounts to the same thing - The government demanding that you hand over money.

Although an interesting point has been raised on another forum recently with regard to the Building Act and Building Regulations. It's there is black & white that all but exempt works must be notified to the local authority before commencement, but which section actually stipulates that there is a legal obligation to pay when notifying? I can't find it with a quick scan through the section headings. Could it be in a separate finance act somewhere?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Either the Approved Document is totally wrong in this respect, or the definition of "outdoor lighting or electric power installation" was not intended to include appliances fixed to the outside wall of the house but where the wiring goes no further.

As I said, that's irrelevant to the air con example - a new air conditioner is notifiable whether inside or outside, and a replacement unit is non-notifiable whether inside or outside.

Because it's an amount that the law is mandating you must pay for a service which you probably don't want in the first place. Call it a fee or a tax, it amounts to the same thing - The government demanding that you hand over money.

It is not compulsory to do DIY electrical work.

An LABC fee is no more a tax than a bus fare, a car parking fee, the entry charge for a council-run leisure centre etc etc etc.

 

[Paul_C]

a new air conditioner is notifiable whether inside or outside

Are you sure? Look at 1(g) of Schedule 2B.

providing a self-contained fixed building service, which is not a fixed internal or external lighting system, where—

(i) it is not a combustion appliance;

(ii) any electrical work associated with its provision is exempt from the requirement to give a building notice or to deposit full plans by virtue of regulation 9 or regulation 12(5)(b);

(iii) testing and adjustment is not possible or would not affect its energy efficiency; and

(iv) in the case of a mechanical ventilation appliance, the appliance is not installed in a room containing an open-flued combustion appliance whose combustion products are discharged through a natural draught flue

Conditions (i) and (iv) are clearly satisfied. Condition (ii) relating to the electrical side would be satisfied for an internal unit connected as a spur from an existing circuit. That only leaves condition (iii), which seems yet another very vague rule (what is included in "testing and adjustment" exactly?), but I would imagine is intended to cover a unit air-conditioner or heating appliance which is installed "as is" by simply mounting and connecting up.

It is not compulsory to do DIY electrical work.

An LABC fee is no more a tax than a bus fare, a car parking fee, the entry charge for a council-run leisure centre etc etc etc.

It is not compulsory to have an electrical service to one's house either, but if you choose to have one, that 5% which is added to the bill and passed onto the government is called Value Added Tax. It's not compulsory to go out and get a job paying £20,000 per year if you're happy living on £5,000, but if you do so the government will want its income tax.

And you can choose to use a different car park, or go to a private swimming pool, etc. If you want to do work on your own house, the law says that you must deal with your LABC.

So whether you want to call it a tax, a fee, or even adopt the totally misleading nomenclature used with regard to National Insurance and call it a "contribution," it amounts to the same thing, and arguing over what it's called is just a matter of semantics.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

There's certainly no point arguing with someone like you, whose whole attitude to the basic existence of any form of government seems to border on the bonkers hatred displayed by nutcases like Timothy McVeigh.

Try to get these facts into your paranoid head:

1) LABC charges are not a tax.

2) The Building Regulations are not part of an international socialist conspiracy to take over the whole world.

3) The United Nations is not a secret world government.

4) If you genuinely want to be listened to regarding changes to the way the Building Regulations are set up and implemented you've got to stop banging on about 1-3.