PLEASE HELP! Am I going to kill myself with no earth????

[stevieg1976]

Hi,

Having just had my bathroom redone, I thought I would add the finishing touch and change the bathroom light.

My house is pretty old and from looking at various sockets I know the wiring is certainly not up to UK modern standards.

So I removed the old bathroom lightbulb, removed the ceiling rose and it was not earthed. I took a photo and attach this........

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• stevieg1976
• 21 Sep 2012
• 1

The light has never had an issue, other than a bulb change, in 10 years or so.

I was going to try and fit a new ceiling fitting I got from B&Q but with no earth present - I am now stumped.

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• stevieg1976
• 21 Sep 2012
• 1

I recognise this might be dangerous but would appreciate some help.

Is it time to get a electrician in? I don't know what I am doing and am tempted to just install without an earth (as it has been for the last 10 or so years) but thought I would check!

PLEASE ADVISE!!! thanks a lot

 

[ricicle]

Unless the new light is Class 2 (double insulated - square within a square symbol) then you must not fit this light.
No cpcs (circuit protective conductors) in lighting circuits indicates installations of an age where they might well be past their sell-by-date.
Maybe time for an electrician to give you an Electrical Installation Condition Report.

 

[securespark]

HOWEVER.....

Those wires on show, are they the fittings wires or part of the lighting wiring?

You may find cables in the loft space with earth wires. Have a look.

 

[ericmark]

There are lights designed to have no earth. However to change anything other than replace like for like in a bathroom needs one to either pay the LABC huge fees or use a scheme member electrician.

Forgetting about the law clearly in days gone by earths were not run to light fittings I think the rules changed in around 1968. What should happen is either every 10 years or on change of occupant the electrics should be tested. So the owners should have been told at least 4 times over the last 30 years that the lights did not comply with current regulations.

Likely there are many other items which no longer comply. The rule book says that there is no need to upgrade where it complies with the edition of BS7671 that was valid at the time it was installed. However the first BS7671 was issued in 1992 so although wiring regulations were printed they were not a British Standard. For a private house this is not really a problem but for rented property it could be.

If the lamp was damaged and needed to be replaced then to do an emergency repair is OK. But to replace it because you want it to look better is not. Clearly before worrying about what it looks like one should be upgrading to latest safety standards.

 

[Maxatoria]

i've got one of those lights and i hate it as theres 3 screws holding on the glass and you need to carefully remove 2 and have the 3rd half undone to safefly remove/put in the glass and if you don't like spiders then its a no no as it seems like it becomes a spider magnet/graveyard very quickly

 

[stevieg1976]

Ricicle - I did come across some light like you mention at http://www.double-insulated-lighting.co.uk/class-2-bathroom-lighting.htm but before I go ahead and purchase just wonder whether I should try and sort this issue properly.

securespark - good shout, I haven't pulled the wires though very much and can't see whether this is part of the wiring circuit or the light itself. Will have a look.

ericmark - thanks also, this is helpful in understanding where the condition of the wiring fits in. I know that my circuit board (which is old and has drawn breath from people who know what they are looking at before) does have something called RCD's as it has cut out before when I have wired stuff up wrong.

Maxatoria - this doesn't work like that, its a threaded glass dome that screws on. Still just as horrible!

 

[ericmark]

There are three devices which can trip and be reset.

The MCB will trip if too much power is used including incorrect wiring these do not have any test button they look like a switch.

The ELCB (Earth leakage Circuit breaker) does have a test button and come in two completely different types.

The ELCB-v is now banned and there is a problem with these in that earth bonding can stop them working. They were normally stand alone units and were used where you had earth rods rather than an earth supplied by the electric board.

The ELCB-c better know as the RCD is also sub-divided in this case to the milliamps needed to trip them. Common values are 300ma, 100ma, 30ma and 10ma. For use with earth rods either 300ma or 100ma was used but this is too high for personnel protection unlikely you will have a 10ma the 30ma is normally the one used to protect personnel.

Since you say circuit board is old I think it unlikely that it has a 30ma RCD fitted. This means if you should get a shock the trip is unlikely to save you.

Although you may find an earth wire this may not be connected at the other end. We use a device called a loop impedance meter to test earth connections without one it is hard to safely test the earth. So even if you do find an earth wire I would still use a double insulated fitting as you have no real way to test it.

 

[stevieg1976]

Thanks ericmark - so it sounds like buying a double insulated fitting is the best way forwards then. I certainly dont want to get in to rewiring the whole house as cannot afford.

So when wiring a double insulated fitting (class 2) i would just connect the L and N and away I go? Regardless of whether I was to find a earth in the loft?

 

[securespark]

Yes. You don't have to have a Class I fitting.

But, if you have no CPC, you must not use a Class I fitting.

If you do find earth wires in the loft, make sure they are connected together, even if not used to connect to a fitting.

 

[EFLImpudence]

However to change anything other than replace like for like in a bathroom

Please don't keep quoting like for like. The law makes no mention of this.

needs one to either pay the LABC huge fees or use a scheme member electrician.

Not if 'outside zones'.

 

[sparkwright]

HOWEVER.....

Those wires on show, are they the fittings wires or part of the lighting wiring?

You may find cables in the loft space with earth wires. Have a look.

As securespark says, look in the loft space above. There may well be a junction box or connector block above the ceiling, and those leads from the light fitting may go to it.

 

[kai]

You can use an all-polycarbonate weatherproof type of light fitting intended for outdoor applications (i.e. waterproof and double-insulated light).

 

[Taylortwocities]

You can use an all-polycarbonate weatherproof type of light fitting intended for outdoor applications (i.e. waterproof and double-insulated light).

And very stylish they are too!

CLICKY

 

[stevieg1976]

Well I looked in the loft and found a reel of earth cable with one end going down through the insulation towards the bathroom. I traced the cable as far as I could but it eventually went inbetween the loft boarding. I can see that the roll of cable is not connected, it is just one end.

So what does this mean? The two light pulls in the bathroom (one for the light and one for the extractor) are both earthed.

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• stevieg1976
• 24 Sep 2012
• 1

Shall I just go class 2 light and be done with it for time being?