Plug in balcony solar UK , just a Lidl question

[JohnW2]

I am not sure the option is still there, the government has declared it will become legal, what we are waiting on, is the requirements to make it legal.

Hmmmm! If it were done and dusted, it would be done and dusted. No matter what governments may 'declare'/promise about their wishes, hopes and intentions, nothing is certain until it happens - not even in terms of the 'IF', let alone the detail.

Just look at what governments have 'declared' about the completion dates for things like 'smart' meter roll-out or HS2 completion (or, indeed, the extent of HS2) or the (very likely not to be achieved) target dates for 'net zero', the end of sales of ICE cars and oil/gas boilers and the end of 'small boats' crossing the English Channel etc. etc. !

Perhaps more to the point, if whatever eventually becomes 'legal' (something probably will) relates to equipment that cannot be plugged in to any existing BS1363 socket, then I really do NOT think it would qualify as "plug-in solar" in the ('portable') sense that most people (including many/most here) seem to be thinking/talking about.

 

[JohnW2]

Plug in solar is possible, no question about that, the question is if it is possible using a standard BS 1363 plug and socket ...

As I've just written, if it cannot be plugged into any existing BS1363 socket, then I really don't think it would qualify as 'plug-in solar' in the sense that most people are thinking of that term.

 

[JohnW2]

My take on bidirectional rcds at this stage is that unless the manufacturer states its bidirectional or its marked as unidirectional it's an unknown quantity

Indeed. Until very recently, I had always assumed that 'traditional' RCDs (without markings) were all 'unidirectional', and that 'bidirectional' was a relatively new-fangled concept which had arisen as a result of electricity export.

However, having just found a number of bog-standrad RCDs (RCCBs) on my shelves which are 20+ (quite possibly 25+) years old, which appear to be about as 'bidirectional' as they could be, I'm definitely coming to wonder whether there ever have been (at least, 'this century') any that were actually 'unilateral'.

As JohnW2 stated ,the test button problem may occur if the rcd is not operational , it can remain in-circuit if not designed to do so

Yes. Even with the additional switched contacts for the test button circuitry (which seems to be what is done to make a device 'bidirectional') there will still be a potential problem with 'lengthy presses of the test button) if (due to being faulty) the device fails to trip when it should - and it would require a fair bit of additional complexity to address that possibility. As I've suggested, it may be felt that since such a device is 'already faulty', and hopefully will be replaced since it did not respond to the test button, that this is not a issue to worry about?

Also the electronics apparently may remain in circuit on the load side after tripping if there's 2 supplies if not designed to do so

Yes, but as I've said, if the device does trip when it is meant to, that is not a problem - since having the electronics permanently powered (for years/decades) is precisely what the devices are used to experiencing in-service.

A possible problem arises if (due to being faulty) the device fails to trip after the electronics has detected a residual current which should result in a trip (since it is not impossible that the electronics uses more current in that situation) -- but, as I have said (unless, I suppose, the devices became much more complex) I find it hard to see how that possibility could be addressed (just as with the 'test button problem'), even in a device said to be 'bidirectional'. If the device does trip when it should, then any residual current will vanish, so that the electronics should return to their 'normal' state (in which being continuously powered is not a problem).

 

[ericmark]

Like a lot of things, plug in solar is here and for all the bleating consumers will just vote with their wallets and it will become defacto regardless of what any trade, supposed safety organisation says.

Yes very well put.

Bernard, thanks, that piece was a very interesting article and brought up some good "food for thought" for us to digest and consider.

What was wrong with my #79 post? At 3:12 on the video he starts to address the islanding problem. At 4:00 in he says inverters will stop when mains is removed, with a compliant inverter, but as, yet we don't have any compliant inverter. The standard only applies to installed inverters, and plug in is not installed.

At 5:00 he hits the real problem, people will break the rules, but since as, yet we have no rules, that is a little pointless.

At 7:00 he tests using two panels with a load, but the worry is not two solar panels, it is where we have 10 solar panels.

7:46 he tests will the RCD work, this test seems valid, and yes the RCD will work.

at 9:34 is the interesting one, 0.5s is very different to 40 mS, the main idea is we don't want 100s of inverters disconnecting when we have a small dip in the voltage due to load on the grid, which could cause a domino effect and the grid failing as 100s or 1000s of inverters all turn off together. So there needs to be a delay.

10:15 he looks at bidirectional. 12:20 he shows to oscilloscope display, where he claims the device trips that fast with a real fault it does not cause a problem, but the real question is if someone is exporting when they test the RCBO with the test button, so in real terms it tells us nothing.

12:45 he does address the problem with overload of a circuit.

14:50 he points out we can buy all sorts which can cause problems. 15:15 he talks about people causing risk without solar, and lack of EICR. And 15:43 he starts on about the wind risk with solar panels or any other product be is a stack of corrugated sheets or a trampoline.

At 17:10 it becomes an advert. By 17:51 he is talking about 2.4 kW.

18:28 he starts advertising again, and talking about battery storage.

By 20:25 he is saying how 2.4 kW can be drawn direct, by 21:25 he is talking about what can be supplied with a proviso that this may change i.e. still in advertisement mode.

He ends with the problem of raising voltages tripping EV chargers.

As I've just written, if it cannot be plugged into any existing BS1363 socket, then I really don't think it would qualify as 'plug-in solar' in the sense that most people are thinking of that term.

I do see your point, but governments love a get out clause.

As it stands, nobody knows. And while we are debating what is allowed, solar panels are being installed.

 

[denso13]

As it stands, nobody knows.

Yes, all we know is that, presently, DIY plug in solar is illegal.

 

[ericmark]

Yes, all we know is that, presently, DIY plug in solar is illegal.

Is it? Plugging solar panel inverter into a V2G EV socket I am reasonably sure is legal?

 

[JohnW2]

As I've just written, if it cannot be plugged into any existing BS1363 socket, then I really don't think it would qualify as 'plug-in solar' in the sense that most people are thinking of that term.

I do see your point, but governments love a get out clause.

Until it is 'done and dusted' (if it ever is!), I don't think that governments need any 'get out clause', since there is not yet anything to 'get out of'!

For what it's worth, the main problem is (in my opinion) not with governments but, rather, with potential users (members of general public) who, like yourself have (perhaps because of the situation in other countries) created their own ideas of what 'plug-in-solar' means - which may or may not correspond with whatever (if anything) eventually becomes legal for use in UK.

To remind you of what I'm saying, if whatever becomes 'legal' requires that an electrician installs some sort of 'special' socket(s) for use with this sort of kit, then I don't think it would qualify as what you (and many others) think that 'plug-in solar' would be. If such was the requirement, I presume it could not utilise BS1363-compatible plugs/sockets, since there would then be nothing stopping people 'plugging in' the devices to existing ('non-special') sockets?

As it stands, nobody knows. And while we are debating what is allowed, solar panels are being installed.

I'd be very interested to know what is being installed, where it's being bought from, what sort of plug it come with and, in particular, what the instructions say about how it 'may' (not can!) be used

 

[ebee]

Eric,
I merely stated that the article was interesting, I did not state whether I agreed/disagreed/had not decided yet about any part of it.
I will probably make some kind of decision about which parts, if any, that I might agree/disagree with or not, in due course.
Yes I found it interesting.

Just for now I would prefer the term "Plug in solar" to mean almost universally plug in comaptible with most readily available working UK sockets.
If some are only usable with more up to date versions of wiring regs etc then I would prefer some clear differentiating term.
If some are only useable with only certain updated circuits/socket devices then I would prefer yet another clear differentiaing term.
In other words to make clear to the vast majority of the public to know what is allowed/not allowed under what conditions rather than pure misleading simpler terms.
If any.

That is a very difficult call to make!

 

[denso13]

Is it? Plugging solar panel inverter into a V2G EV socket I am reasonably sure is legal?

The plug in solar we are discussing, yes.

 

[ericmark]

I'd be very interested to know what is being installed, where it's being bought from, what sort of plug it come with and, in particular, what the instructions say about how it 'may' (not can!) be used

Two videos from efixx are examples of what is being done.

On the screwfix forum one guy has fitted his own plug in solar, and was pleased with the result, and now increasing I think to 2.4 kW by using multi-units, but to me not true plug in as we would see it, as using a shelly current monitor to control it.

The new video is rather long, one hour 20 minutes, it talks about German regulations, and some of the recommendations, plug good and bad installations. Also, how with a special plug in Germany the limit goes up.

What they are saying the safety should be built into the inverter, and the inverter needs to be G98 compliant. Be it a Jonathan Tracey video or efixx there are loads showing how it is done.

The recommendation to down rate the MCB/RCBO a size, so with a UK ring final we would have a 25 amp MCB, instead of 32, but with a German radial dropping from 16 to 10 amp does seem a bit drastic.

For over an hour video it does not say much.

It does refer to battery use, and how the modern good quality inverters allow one to follow cheap rates charging and discharging far better to what my inverter can do, with some very good tariffs being on offer.

 

[JohnW2]

Just for now I would prefer the term "Plug in solar" to mean almost universally plug in comaptible with most readily available working UK sockets.

Exactly - that's what I keep saying. It seems to me that many people (like eric) are thinking/talking about 'plug-in solar' as meaning just that, although there is as yet no certainty about what will (may) eventually become 'legal' in the UK.

As I've been saying, the moment one moves to a situation (which could be the one we end up with) in which it is necessary for an electrician to install some special socket (incompatible with an 'ordinary'; BS1363 socket) for such products, then we would have moved away from the idea of 'plug-in solar' in the sense that many/most probably think of that term.

This whole discussion seems to be inappropriately premature speculation to me!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Two videos from efixx are examples of what is being done. .... The new video is rather long, one hour 20 minutes, it talks about German regulations, and some of the recommendations, plug good and bad installations. Also, how with a special plug in Germany the limit goes up.

If I can find some time, I'll have a look at the videos,. but my initial comment without even doing that is that "Germany is Germany" and, as such, has a lot of approaches to electrical matters that differ from UK approaches - such that it seems very inappropriate (and pretty pointless) to speculate by assuming that whatever rules/regs/legislation we end up with in the UK will be anything like the situation in Germany (or any other countries).

... What they are saying the safety should be built into the inverter ...

That's all very well, and desirable, if/when it is possible. However, I would remind you that much of the discussion here has been about the potential damage to 'unidirectional' RCDs (external to the inverter) if the test button is pressed during export - and it'shard to see that there is anything that could be 'built into the inverter' to address that potential issue/problem/'danger'.

 

[ebee]

This whole discussion seems to be inappropriately premature speculation to me!

I agree

 

[denso13]

However, I would remind you that much of the discussion here has been about the potential damage to 'unidirectional' RCDs (external to the inverter) if the test button is pressed during export

Getting out with of my depth now, but what if they don't export at all?

 

[JohnW2]

Getting out with of my depth now, but what if they don't export at all?

It's not all that 'deep', so you're probably doing yourself an injustice !

The potential 'test button issue' specific to 'unidirectional' RCDs that has been discussed to death is something that can only happen if the test button of an RCD in the installation is pressed during export - so, if there is never any export, that issue will never arise. Even if there is 'occasional' export, it's extremely unlikley that the button would be pressed (and kept pressed for an 'appreciable time') whilst export is occurring.

The likes of eric seem to feel that export is a significant attraction of these plug-in thingies. However, as I've said, I would have suspected that most people contemplating using these ('small') devices would merely be expecting a reduction in their bills for import, without contemplating any export (or payment for it). If the rule-/law-makers share that view, it's just possible that they will decide to 'overlook' the potential issue during export (if they feel that export will only rarely happen).

Kind Regards, John