Plug sockets not working, but were before...

[ban-all-sheds]

Ban all sheds has done this on every forum he's been a member of. He's been banned from at least two of them. Unless he's actually changed job he isn't actually an electrician either - he's just a knowledgeable amateur AKA DIYer.

Ho hum.

Blimey the fools are out in force today..

Can you present an an intelligent and reasoned explanation, i.e. not an ad hominem fallacy, of why any of that makes my advice incorrect?

 

[xr4x4]

Must be difficult up on that throne.

What throne?

I simply believe that if people want to do electrical work that they should genuinely understand it, not just follow instructions without really knowing what they are doing.

Can you explain what's wrong with that, i.e. explain why people should be encouraged to do electrical work when they don't really know what they are doing?

You seem to know everything, you work it out.

A minimum of two people already have.

 

[JohnW2]

Can you present an an intelligent and reasoned explanation, i.e. not an ad hominem fallacy, of why any of that makes my advice incorrect?

BAS, as a good few people have said a good few times, the problem is frequently not a matter of the correctness of your advice, but rather the way you give it - and, indeed, whether it is always necessary and appropriate for you to jump in and give that advice.

I realise that you are in many senses well-intentioned, and you certainly do have valuable contributions to offer. However, I fear that you are probably top of the list of those who have frightened DIYers away from this forum (either before or after they start posting requests for advice) - and if you think that means they have all been deterred from doing potentially dangerous things without the benefit of advice, I fear you may be mistaken.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[cajar]

Must be difficult up on that throne.

What throne?

I simply believe that if people want to do electrical work that they should genuinely understand it, not just follow instructions without really knowing what they are doing.

Can you explain what's wrong with that, i.e. explain why people should be encouraged to do electrical work when they don't really know what they are doing?

If they genuinely understood it they wouldn't be on a forum asking. You seem to exist to tell them they shouldn't be asking. Why join a DIY forum if you don't agree with helping people who lack knowledge?

Of course you will say that you are helping them find £200 worth of books and helping them by telling them they are stupid and need to hire an electrician to put the ceiling rose on - but that is exactly the point - they ignore your advice because it is condescending and not useful to them.

 

[EFLImpudence]

EIIR
Some people seem to manage it.

Ah but she's been bred and trained for the job

But we don't know who BAS is.

What would you do while waiting sixty years for a job?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You seem to know everything, you work it out.

A minimum of two people already have.

Sorry - I can't see any explanations of why it's wrong to believe that if people want to do electrical work that they should genuinely understand it, not just follow instructions without really knowing what they are doing, or why they should be encouraged to do electrical work when they don't really know what they are doing.

Can you point them out to me?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

BAS, as a good few people have said a good few times, the problem is frequently not a matter of the correctness of your advice, but rather the way you give it - and, indeed, whether it is always necessary and appropriate for you to jump in and give that advice.

So what's wrong with the way I wrote this:

Well - basically your decision to not let your serious lack of knowledge of electrics be a bar to trying to work on them.


Carrying out electrical work without understanding it is a very bad idea. Following instructions to "put this wire in that hole" without knowing why, and without knowing how it works, is to be strongly discouraged. Given what you've said in this topic, and here you really don't have that understanding.

Yes - of course everybody has to start somewhere, but you should start by acquiring a solid foundation of knowledge, not by diving into actually doing when you don't know how it works.

Please spend some time learning how electrical circuits work, what switches do, etc, before having a go.

• http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=electrical+circuits+101
  
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20080213151445/http://www.kevinboone.com/electricity.html
  
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20080213151445/http://www.kevinboone.com/domesticinstallations.html
  
  
• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:books
  
  
• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics[/list]
  ?
  
  (Note - explanations which rely on imagining meanings other than those plainly in the text, or imagining words which aren't there will not be acceptable.)
  
  
  

  I realise that you are in many senses well-intentioned, and you certainly do have valuable contributions to offer. However, I fear that you are probably top of the list of those who have frightened DIYers away from this forum (either before or after they start posting requests for advice) -

  If people are frightened by a suggestion that they actually take responsibility for themselves, their actions, their knowledge etc then they should leave the whole idea of DIYing something which can kill well alone.
  
  
  

  and if you think that means they have all been deterred from doing potentially dangerous things without the benefit of advice, I fear you may be mistaken.

  If they need to be deterred then they need to be deterred, and I cannot be held responsible for any subsequent ill advised choices on their part.

 

[JohnW2]

So what's wrong with the way I wrote this: ....

If you don't understand what I and others are saying (and I feel sure that you probably do understand), nothing I could say would make any difference.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If they genuinely understood it they wouldn't be on a forum asking.

Indeed not.

You seem to exist to tell them they shouldn't be asking.

Can you show me where I've said they shouldn't be asking?

Why join a DIY forum if you don't agree with helping people who lack knowledge?

A valid question.

Perhaps you should ask it all those who criticise me for stressing the importance of knowledge and showing ways to acquire it.

Of course you will say that you are helping them find £200 worth of books

The web resources I link to are all free.

and helping them by telling them they are stupid and need to hire an electrician to put the ceiling rose on

You'll be able to show where I've done that, will you?

- but that is exactly the point - they ignore your advice because it is condescending and not useful to them.

You are wrong on both those counts.

It is not condescending to point out that someone who thinks that they can make a light work by connecting it only to a permanent and switched live doesn't know something which is really very basic, and nobody does them any favours by pretending that such ignorance should not be addressed.

And it is useful to provide people with information which will allow them to address it.

 

[TheOriginalTonkaToy]

EIIR
Some people seem to manage it.

Ah but she's been bred and trained for the job

But we don't know who BAS is.

What would you do while waiting sixty years for a job?

Has he been known to talk to plants and criticise architecture? I don't think downlighters actually count...

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So what's wrong with the way I wrote this: ....

If you don't understand what I and others are saying (and I feel sure that you probably do understand), nothing I could say would make any difference.

I understand what you are saying.

And I understand that you are saying it because of flawed reasoning.

"nothing I could say would make any difference" is just a recognition that you cannot present an intelligent and reasoned explanation of what is wrong with what I posted.

 

[JohnW2]

"nothing I could say would make any difference" is just a recognition that you cannot present an intelligent and reasoned explanation of what is wrong with what I posted.

Nope, it's a recognition of the fact that even if presented with an 'intelligent and reasoned explanation', you would still not change your behaviour. I've been around electronic discussion groups for far too long (probably since before some of this forum's members were born) to think otherwise.

Also, I'm being generous, in assuming that you have the intelligence to understand what several of us are getting at. I believe that to be true, but if I'm wrong, the alternative explanation would be that you're just plain daft.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Nope, it's a recognition of the fact that even if presented with an 'intelligent and reasoned explanation', you would still not change your behaviour.

No - that's a cop out.

 

[JohnW2]

No - that's a cop out.

As I said, I've been around electronic discussion groups for longer than some of the members of this forum have been alive. If it's what presses your buttons, I suggest that you look for someone other than me to bait.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[xr4x4]