It is quite likely that air was the problem of the corrossion, but that is irrelevent, Stelrad have stated in their report that flux was the cause of the leak, the OP only needs to prove to them that this is not the cause, as I said an email to everflux shoulkd resolve the matter as in my opinion Everflux is not capable of causing a leak in steel onece diluted in water, the only time I have known flux to cause pinholes was on copper pipe where the flux residue was not cleaned from the pipes
Problems with Stelrad
- Thread starter DaleRCL
- Start date
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In the hopefully unlikely event of the builder/plumber being sued by the customer then their defense will need to prove that the cause of the holes was not THEIR fault regardless of the real cause.
They are not being sued by Stelrad.
As far as we know the Owner is not sueing Selrad. If the Owner did then it might be relatively easy to demonstrate that the cause was NOT an excess of flux as Stelrad has claimed. If Stelrad then lost the case they would be likely to have to replace the rads.
Persuading the Owner to sue Stelrad might be a good solution as they are large enough to be able to solve the problem by supplying replacement rads and as a large company selling millions of rads would probably be unlikely to want the publicity of a court case.
Tony
They are not being sued by Stelrad.
As far as we know the Owner is not sueing Selrad. If the Owner did then it might be relatively easy to demonstrate that the cause was NOT an excess of flux as Stelrad has claimed. If Stelrad then lost the case they would be likely to have to replace the rads.
Persuading the Owner to sue Stelrad might be a good solution as they are large enough to be able to solve the problem by supplying replacement rads and as a large company selling millions of rads would probably be unlikely to want the publicity of a court case.
Tony
Hi Chaps,
To answer all your questions and respond to advice and statements made:
Agile: I dont disagree that x300 does what you say (removes flux residue) however I was never taught to use it as part of the commissioning process and have always seen it as an option rather than necessity. With regards to the water quality, I haven't done a lab test on it but when I drained down to remove the initial leaking rads it looked as you'd expect. I have been to the property numerous times since commissioning and have not witnessed the system pumping over. Although you say my task is to prove that what caused the rads to leak is not my fault, would it not be fair to say that it is the task of Stelrad or the customer to prove that it is my fault. Unfortunately I have to disagree with your statement that excess flux would hole the rads in a few weeks, I just dont think that would be the case. The inhibitor I used was sentinel and I didnt put a sticker on the boiler as we didnt replace the boiler, regardless, I dont think putting a sticker on a boiler would necessarily constitute proof of adding it to the system anyway. Finally, the builder is very thorough and certainly didnt try to get away with a cheap job, He didnt give me a specification detailing chemicals/commission etc but then what builder does?
Ironman 1: I think you may be right about air entrapment, however the pump, cold feed and vent are all installed in the correct manor and as previously stated I have not witnessed any pumping over.
The owner will not go down the route of suing Stelrad as their contract was with the builder. Do you guys think that its down to me to prove that it wasnt my fault or for another party (customer/builder/Stelrad) to prove it was my fault?
To answer all your questions and respond to advice and statements made:
Agile: I dont disagree that x300 does what you say (removes flux residue) however I was never taught to use it as part of the commissioning process and have always seen it as an option rather than necessity. With regards to the water quality, I haven't done a lab test on it but when I drained down to remove the initial leaking rads it looked as you'd expect. I have been to the property numerous times since commissioning and have not witnessed the system pumping over. Although you say my task is to prove that what caused the rads to leak is not my fault, would it not be fair to say that it is the task of Stelrad or the customer to prove that it is my fault. Unfortunately I have to disagree with your statement that excess flux would hole the rads in a few weeks, I just dont think that would be the case. The inhibitor I used was sentinel and I didnt put a sticker on the boiler as we didnt replace the boiler, regardless, I dont think putting a sticker on a boiler would necessarily constitute proof of adding it to the system anyway. Finally, the builder is very thorough and certainly didnt try to get away with a cheap job, He didnt give me a specification detailing chemicals/commission etc but then what builder does?
Ironman 1: I think you may be right about air entrapment, however the pump, cold feed and vent are all installed in the correct manor and as previously stated I have not witnessed any pumping over.
The owner will not go down the route of suing Stelrad as their contract was with the builder. Do you guys think that its down to me to prove that it wasnt my fault or for another party (customer/builder/Stelrad) to prove it was my fault?
I don't know much about law, but I do know that you are innocent until proven guilty. I should think the same principle applies here.
So surely it must always be down to the other party to prove you are at fault.
So surely it must always be down to the other party to prove you are at fault.
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E
expertgasman
For what it's worth, legally I believe THEY have to prove you are responsible. However, as you replaced everything apart from the boiler, I don't think that would be difficult, in a court scenario. If your builder was suing you, he doesn't have to worry whether the rads are faulty or not as YOU supplied them, ergo: you'll be responsible, though not neccesarily at fault. It would be for you to then sue Stelrad, if you beleived the rads caused the issue.
I'm not having a pop at you, and you have my sympathy. It is a ball ache when you feel you are paying for some one elses cock ups, but that is why I can't understgand plumbers buying stuff to supply, and only making labour.
Thanks Expertgasman, I agree and feel that this will be the case. I am going to contact everflux and have them write a letter as previously discussed. With regards to supplying and only making labour, I would never put myself in that position either, I always put between 10 and 20 percent on top of what I purchase materials for. Plus I just find it easier as customers rarely know what they want or need. Unfortunately this time it has backfired.
Hi sorry but I cant imagine that 8 Stelrad (very good quality) radiators would fail because of manufacturing errors on the same system.
If they were all the of the same size and date of manufacture it maybe possible. The chances that every rad in the house was the same size are very slim. Also the chances of you buying a set of 8 (different sized) rads that all came from the same "faulty"batch are very slim.
Therefore oxygen in the system would sound a possible cause. I cant see that flux could cause the kind corrosion required when diluted with many many litres of constantly moving water. Especially with inhibitor in it!
Tell you what is interesting the Purmo rad is still hanging in there!!!!!
If they were all the of the same size and date of manufacture it maybe possible. The chances that every rad in the house was the same size are very slim. Also the chances of you buying a set of 8 (different sized) rads that all came from the same "faulty"batch are very slim.
Therefore oxygen in the system would sound a possible cause. I cant see that flux could cause the kind corrosion required when diluted with many many litres of constantly moving water. Especially with inhibitor in it!
Tell you what is interesting the Purmo rad is still hanging in there!!!!!
Hi newgasinstaller,
In spite of HOW the flux or oxygen got to the point in the system where the rads were coroded, do you not think that a lump of steel should be able to withstand flux eating through it within a year?
In spite of HOW the flux or oxygen got to the point in the system where the rads were coroded, do you not think that a lump of steel should be able to withstand flux eating through it within a year?
And the piont that the Purmorad is still intact, and the towel rails, only adds to my arguement that it is a problem with the Stelrads.
Have you told Stelrad about the Purmo rad and towel warmers Im sure they would be interested in how there competitors seem to have survived the killer flux attack 
No, I havent told them actually. I'm sure the only response I'll get is some scripted statement about how they cant comment on other manufacturers products.
You may think that all you have to do is to walk into a court and sit back and they will be unable to prove that you are at fault.
For a start a plumber goes into a court with his hands tied behind his back because everyone ( including the judge ) knows that all plumbers are cowboys who over charge for poor quality work! Thats the problem the profession has!
The mere fact that you supplied and installed the rads and they have holed in such a short time virtually proves you are guilty without any evidence from the claimant!
To defend a court case requires a very diligent attitude to the case and many hours are required to provide evidence as well as back up evidence and answers to anything the other side may bring up which may catch you off guard.
Tony
For a start a plumber goes into a court with his hands tied behind his back because everyone ( including the judge ) knows that all plumbers are cowboys who over charge for poor quality work! Thats the problem the profession has!
The mere fact that you supplied and installed the rads and they have holed in such a short time virtually proves you are guilty without any evidence from the claimant!
To defend a court case requires a very diligent attitude to the case and many hours are required to provide evidence as well as back up evidence and answers to anything the other side may bring up which may catch you off guard.
Tony
Now a few general points!
When installing NEW rads and pipework the correct procedure is to use a cleanser like X300!
Part of the procedure is to complete and attach the label from the X300 to the boiler. That constitutes a record of what you have done.
Next you drain and flush and then add X100 inhibitor and again you complete and attach the label. That shows what you have used.
These treatments are all in accordance with British Standards and accepted good practice.
Its totally irrelevant if anyone trained with a cowboy who passed on tips about how to avoid doing a proper job and save on installation materials. Thats the same person who would train you on how to rip off old ladies!
I dont understand how anyone would want to be trained in how NOT to do a good job. The whole point of training is to show how it should be done. Thats why trainers are drawn from well qualified people.
Tony
When installing NEW rads and pipework the correct procedure is to use a cleanser like X300!
Part of the procedure is to complete and attach the label from the X300 to the boiler. That constitutes a record of what you have done.
Next you drain and flush and then add X100 inhibitor and again you complete and attach the label. That shows what you have used.
These treatments are all in accordance with British Standards and accepted good practice.
Its totally irrelevant if anyone trained with a cowboy who passed on tips about how to avoid doing a proper job and save on installation materials. Thats the same person who would train you on how to rip off old ladies!
I dont understand how anyone would want to be trained in how NOT to do a good job. The whole point of training is to show how it should be done. Thats why trainers are drawn from well qualified people.
Tony
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Sounds as though your judging based on experience Tony - well either that or your typing from a very narrowed view-point.
Mr. W.
I sympathise with your situation, although it seems a bit unfair that you put a markup on materials, yet you're unwilling/unable to offer backup to the customer when said materials fail.
That aside, if you do get taken to court by the builder, and you're confident that you can prove the leaks are down to a manufacturing fault, you could in turn take Stelrad to court and seek compensation. It'll be messy and expensive if you lose, so think carefully!
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