Problems with Stelrad

[simond]

Everflux manufacturer data sheet;

http://www.directa.co.uk/product_datasheets/ds179.pdf

Since the 'experts' here seem not to concur - you could take the advice of the manufacturer.

 

[Agile]

The experts here have not seen the installation or done any tests and cannot do any more than guess what the cause was, my best guess was due to oxygen in the system perhaps from pumping over. The OP proposed to "watch" it for two hours with his sandwiches and flask. My way to check that would be while in a restaurant or sleeping!

That flux contains 4% of zinc chloride! That is acidic and corrodes steel!

See :-

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-corrosion-resistance-d_491.html

The OP thinks its optional and not important to use a cleanser like X300 or even to fit the label from the inhibitor. If the water treatment had been done properly and documented then he might not be in this position. At the very least he would be able to provide counter evidence that he had followed the correct cleansing procedures!

The production of pin holes in rads would often be caused by acid from flux, oxygen in the water or impurities in the steel causing galvanic corrosion. I am not at all sure that looking at the pin hole after the event would enable the exact cause to be determined. We need a comment here from our resident metallurgist.

Tony

 

[mickyg]

Agile I sometimes wonder if you only read bits of threads which you want and ignore the rest.
the facts have been made clear, Stelrad have blamed flux. The OP has stated he uses Everflux. Everflux state their flux is not harmful to rads, pipe etc.. and is water soluble. So therefore, a) a hot and cold flush will clear the flux, b) even if some is left it wouldn't cause the problem.
Stelrad like most manufacturers these days are just blaming the installer as its an easy get out, and they know too many customers will believe them over their installer.
Considering your an independant yourself mr Glazier I'm surprised your sticking up for the manufacturer given the only evidence we have seems to clear the OP.

 

[mickyg]

btw Mr Glazier, can you point me in the direction of the British Standard that insists on X300 being used to flush new systems because when I went to college there was no mention of it.

 

[Agile]

The British Standard will not specifically suggest just X300 but Sentinel say it is suitable for cleaning a system in accordance with BS7593: 1992

 

[Agile]

the facts have been made clear, Stelrad have blamed flux. The OP has stated he uses Everflux. Everflux state their flux is not harmful to rads, pipe etc.. and is water soluble.

Considering your an independant yourself mr Glazier I'm surprised your sticking up for the manufacturer given the only evidence we have seems to clear the OP.

The flux contains 4% zinc chloride which is corrosive! Thats a fact!

Neither of us know what cleaning was done or how effective it was. Based on the OP's description of what he did the holing seems unlikely to be as a direct result of the flux BUT we dont know.

Suppose there was excess flux in the system? Why would that cause pin holes rather than degrade the whole surface uniformly? My suggestion would be caused by impurities in the steel causing the acid attack to be localised. But I would prefer the metallurgist to comment on this.

I am not supporting anyone, just considering the facts as presented to us. But I am disappointed that the OP chose to not use a cleanser and did not even fit the inhibitor label. That greatly diminishes his defence to the allegations by Stelrad.

 

[mickyg]

The British Standard will not specifically suggest just X300 but Sentinel say it is suitable for cleaning a system in accordance with BS7593: 1992

thats for new systems, its not a new system. he replaced some rads

 

[DaleRCL]

Hi guys,

I visited the house today to check if the system was pumping over and it wasn't. However when I was there I noticed that the pump, pump valves and one of the zone valves weren't the ones that we had installed. I asked the customer if anyone had drained down or done any maintenence work to the system since we had commissioned it and they gave me a very non convincing 'No,no,no nobodys done anything.' So I said, well thats odd as there have been some alterations made since we finished the job.

He then said, Oh yes actually British Gas came and changed a few bits as they were leaking and its covered in our BG cover. I then asked if he knew did BG put in a new inhibitor when they did this. And he told me that they didnt drain down to do it. I said that they must have as the pipework would have been live and I asked if they still had a copy of the report that BG left. They didnt but said they would try and contact BG and get a copy.

I then left and got a phone call ten minutes later from the lady customer saying that she had spoken to BG and they would forward her a copy of the report and that they had been there on 8th Dec 2010. I was made aware of the rads first pinholing in mid Jan. So I said, I would have to consider this as a potentially major factor in my trying to get to the bottom of what has happened. She must have had me on loudspeaker as I was then met with a barrage of 'tell him to **** off we're going to ****ing sue him, **** this ****that' from her other half.

When I got home I sent her an email saying that I think because of her other half's inability to conduct himself sensibly, all further correspondence should be via email and could she please send me a copy of the BG report when she gets it. I have not heard anything back yet.

 

[DaleRCL]

Oh and I have also spoke to the head of technical at Everflux, who is very annoyed at Stelrads claim and will be more than happy to put together a written statement saying that there is no way that their product would eat through steel.

 

[mickyg]

well BG in your position would now claim 3rd party interferance, and you should do exactly the same

 

[DaleRCL]

Will do Micky, the customers seemed pretty p****d off that I had noticed that other work had been carried out. I dont think they realised that I would be able to tell.

 

[mickyg]

as a side note, stelrad have done what they wanted, what every manufacturer aims for in this situation... keep the conflict between the client and the installer.

 

[transam]

A good many years ago , the company I worked for used to always fit Barlo radiators , we used to get them direct from Barlo , not through a supplier ! they had problems with rads pin holeing , a rep from Barlo blamed neverflux & they put out a message adviseing installers not to use it , this message or advise had to be withdrawn as the manu's of neverflux threatened legal action !

A few years back there was a case reported in the gas installer mag about an installer who was found guilty of negligence due to a gas leak on an iron gas pipe , he was soldering some water pipe above it & some of the residue flux dripped onto the gas plpe which over a period of time caused the iron to corrode through , I cannot remember the time scale !

 

[expertgasman]

I visited the house today to check if the system was pumping over and it wasn't. However when I was there I noticed that the pump, pump valves and one of the zone valves weren't the ones that we had installed.

Why would someone change ALL of these that were only a year old. Sorry, it just sounds a bit odd.

 

[Agile]

There are two slightly odd conclusions which arise from this new discovery:-

It seems odd the house owner did not call you/builder if anything was wrong with a new pump/valve which you fitted.

As British Gas will have ( mostly ) drained the system to fit the new pump valves and the valve then the original water content will not now be the same. Therefore current analysis will not be relevant.

The customers outburst did not seem appropriate for someone who thought the rads were at fault rather than you.

What have you done to see if this is covered by your insurance? Its a complicated subject but I would expect/hope that it does.

Tony