Problems with Stelrad

[Agile]

Its quite normal to add a percentage to materials to cover specifying, ordering and transporting/receiving them on site.

That makes no difference to the details of any claims.

None of us think there is any manufacturing fault! These are common well made rads with a market share of 23% !

Proving the cause, or not, will be very difficult in a court.

For the manufacturer this is a very minor matter. For the builder probably fairly small but for a self employed worker more significant which is why I always advocate doing everything properly. If the customer or builder does not want to pay for a proper job then walk away!

Tony

 

[expertgasman]

None of us think there is any manufacturing fault!

Speak for yourself, Tony. I can't say or sure one way or the other, and nor can you.

 

[Agile]

Do you really think there is a manufacturing fault in the rads?

If so what do you imagine could be the fault?

Tony

 

[Agile]

Hi sorry but I cant imagine that 8 Stelrad (very good quality) radiators would fail because of manufacturing errors on the same system.

If they were all the of the same size and date of manufacture it maybe possible. The chances that every rad in the house was the same size are very slim. Also the chances of you buying a set of 8 (different sized) rads that all came from the same "faulty"batch are very slim.

Therefore oxygen in the system would sound a possible cause. I cant see that flux could cause the kind corrosion required when diluted with many many litres of constantly moving water. Especially with inhibitor in it!

Tell you what is interesting the Purmo rad is still hanging in there!!!!!

I am not alone!

 

[electronicsuk]

Its quite normal to add a percentage to materials to cover specifying, ordering and transporting/receiving them on site.

That makes no difference to the details of any claims.

I don't want to sway this topic too far from the original debate, but it's my personal opinion that if you supply the goods, and especially if you're all too willing to put a markup on them, you are responsible should they become faulty. Having been through a huge amount of hassle with Ultraheat and Inspired Heating not too long ago, with the latter trying to pass the buck straight to the manufacturer, I can tell you that it doesn't make for a happy customer if you try and wash your hands of the products you've effectively sold.

 

[Gasman77]

He is not a installer, judging by the way he goes on, he wouldn't make enough money to survive

 

[PEDANTICVINDICTIVEMAN]

Steel rads, cast boiler, nothing wrong at all with a hot and cold flush and then Inhibitor, before all this cheap shiitte boilers and materials came on the market, there was only Fernox rust inhibitor, that was it, and a lot of systems were lucky to get that, never had rads pinholing then, so whats changed, maybe too much fluoride in the water and self cleaning flux, which is "supposed" to dissolve in water, so who's the liars, flux maker or rad maker, it's not going to be installation unless it's pumping over.

 

[Nige F]

Nothing to do with sheets of steel not sourced from a reputable UK foundry- but from the Peoples Republic of China - where the quality is that of corrugated tin for shed roofs Allegedly and Without Prejudice. Nah , couldn`t happen her in Little Britain could it - MUST be the devilishly corrosive flux diluted in litres of water. probably recycled Nissans from the 1980`s mixed with British Leyland "steel"

 

[expertgasman]

Do you really think there is a manufacturing fault in the rads?

If so what do you imagine could be the fault?

Tony

I didn't say there WAS a manufacturing fault. I said that you shouldn't post on others behalf! It IS interesting that only the stelrads have suffered, at the same time it is perplexing. If the system design is 100%, and no pumping over
, could there be a small leak somewhere, causing regular addition of fresh oxygenated water?

The comment about there being MANY systems with poor design and filthy water is also fair.

So, could there be a problem with the Stelrads that is exacerbating an underlying issue?

 

[expertgasman]

Do you really think there is a manufacturing fault in the rads?

Do you really beleive that a bit of flux will corrode completely through a radiator in a couple of weeks?

 

[DaleRCL]

Hi again guys.

Agile: I am under no illusion that I will walk into court and they wont be able to prove a thing, this is why I am speaking to you guys to try and get some advice on how to build a case in my favour.
Ive already stated that I dont disagree with using X300 in the flushing procedure, however I do maintain that it is not vital as I have never used it in the past and have worked on hundreds of systems and never come up against this problem before.
While i appreciate your relevant and valid comments, I certainly dont know what you think gives you the right to presume that I was trained by a cowboy just because I dont follow the same commissioning process as you do to the letter. I think you're letting your imagination run away with itself.

electronicsuk: Unfortunately I must disagree, if everytime I put a mark up on the supply of products only for that mark up to then be used putting those products right, then why would I bother supplying them in the first place. I would have nothing to gain by doing this. As Agile quite rightly says, this mark up is for specifying, ordering, transporting etc. I dont know many tradesmen who dont put a mark up on the supply of materials.

Anyway, I've given the whole situation some further thought today and although I have not seen the system pumping over, I dont spend hours in the customers loft watching their f&e tank so it could be happenning and I just haven't witnessed it. I spoke to the customer today and they are happy for me to come back and do some further investigation. Looks like I'm gonna be up in their loft for a couple of hours, better take my thermos and my insurance policy.

Thats another thing, although my insurance company say that I am only covered for 3rd party property damage, Agile quite rightly pointed out earlier in the thread that I could argue that the rads are now the customers property. I would happily swallow the labour if I could just get the rads paid for.

 

[Gasman77]

Hi again guys.

Agile: I am under no illusion that I will walk into court and they wont be able to prove a thing, this is why I am speaking to you guys to try and get some advice on how to build a case in my favour.
Ive already stated that I dont disagree with using X300 in the flushing procedure, however I do maintain that it is not vital as I have never used it in the past and have worked on hundreds of systems and never come up against this problem before.
While i appreciate your relevant and valid comments, I certainly dont know what you think gives you the right to presume that I was trained by a cowboy just because I dont follow the same commissioning process as you do to the letter. I think you're letting your imagination run away with itself.
electronicsuk: Unfortunately I must disagree, if everytime I put a mark up on the supply of products only for that mark up to then be used putting those products right, then why would I bother supplying them in the first place. I would have nothing to gain by doing this. As Agile quite rightly says, this mark up is for specifying, ordering, transporting etc. I dont know many tradesmen who dont put a mark up on the supply of materials.

Anyway, I've given the whole situation some further thought today and although I have not seen the system pumping over, I dont spend hours in the customers loft watching their f&e tank so it could be happenning and I just haven't witnessed it. I spoke to the customer today and they are happy for me to come back and do some further investigation. Looks like I'm gonna be up in their loft for a couple of hours, better take my thermos and my insurance policy.

Thats another thing, although my insurance company say that I am only covered for 3rd party property damage, Agile quite rightly pointed out earlier in the thread that I could argue that the rads are now the customers property. I would happily swallow the labour if I could just get the rads paid for.

Sums up 99% of his posts to be honest.

 

[simond]

About 4 years back, because of the number of units we were installing, we were offered a 5yr Vaillant warranty on all boilers, providing we used Sentinel testing of a water sample. To cut a long story short, one July Sentinel backed 5 of our samples, each of which had excess 'dissolved' copper.

At some expense, we went back with our Norstrom chemical test kit, and took our own samples, and couldn't find any significant copper concentrations. As two of the properties were 'new build' and in Polyplumb, this was not surprising

Turned out that Sentinel do not have a test lab, they sub it out. All the rejected samples came back in August, the month most people take their holidays. You must draw you own conclusions.



As a result, I wouldn't use Sentinel to tell me the time, we only use Fernox testing now, and they have a first class lab run by ex employees.

I don't think there is anything wrong with your installation. The X300 thread here is hyperbole.

The fact that you flushed the install, the other manufacturer's rads have survived (if you look at the mathematical probilities here) all suggests Stelrad have bent you over.

If I were in the position you find yourself in, I would do the following;

- tell your customer that you are dealing with it, and to let you drain the rad side down for the next month or so
- point out to them that if you are right, there is a good chance that the Stelrad replacements will fail prematurely
- Buy a Norstrom or similar full chemical test kit
- Do your own water analysis
- Once you have done this, assuming it vindicates you, send the results to Stelrad together with the mathematical probability of theirs vs the others being faulty
- give Stelrad two weeks to reply to a recorded delivery letter asking for new products and a contribution to your time
- if you don't get a positive response, replace customer rads and commence small claims track with Stelrad for your costs
- In the Small Claims track, you decide which Court it twill be heard at. The further away it is from Stelrad HQ, the more it'll cost them to attend.

Good luck.

 

[Gasguru]

Personally I have absolutely no sympathy for the OP if the leaks are due to poor installation. The idea that you don't know about cleaning chemicals is laughable....the bottles are standing next to the inhibitors in most merchants. Saving a tenner with 2Ks worth of rads isn't worth the risk. Apart from fluxes , flushing with water alone will not clean out the oil borne contaminents...these cause significant damage to O rings/diverters etc.

You've shoved a markup on the rads when you supplied them...surely this was to cover any warranty issues. So every so often you're going to take a hit; so it's no big deal to replace them. Or do you view the markup as easy money?....most in the trade see it as fair game to hike up prices without realising the warranty is now with them. If you're not sure of a products quality then don't supply it. One of reasons I stopped installing was the appalling quality of boilers, if customers wern't prepared to cover my warranty issues (by paying for the mark-up) then I didn't supply it.

Have you considered cutting open a rad to see what's happening. I'm sure you could find a few uni mettalurgy students to check it out for free. Might point you in the right direction...could be crevice corrosion etc down to poor manufacturing.

I seen too many of these "designer" rads suffer from problems....many are very intolerant to system water...no specific manufacturers, just the way the water flows through them.

And FWIW that Mexico will be full of sludge if it's like any I've seen. Pull out the lower plugs and shove in a long magnetised screwdriver...you won't believe the fillings that come out.

 

[Agile]

Hi again guys.

Ive already stated that I dont disagree with using X300 in the flushing procedure, however I do maintain that it is not vital as I have never used it in the past and have worked on hundreds of systems and never come up against this problem before.

I certainly dont know what you think gives you the right to presume that I was trained by a cowboy just because I dont follow the same commissioning process as you do to the letter.

You have got yourself into a problem situation that may well cost you at least £2000. Some would say so what, thats what we get sometimes in our industry.

However, I think its a bit rich that you accuse me of my imagination running away when you clearly have not applied good standards of workmanship in accordance with the British Standards.

You apparently think that those who define the standards in our industry are some kind of plonkers but all I can say is that the CIPHE, British Standards and the courts are unlikely to agree with you.

Regardless of your cut corners attitude, I still maintain that anyone training you to be a cowboy must himself be a cowboy. Its not surprising the general level of competence is so low.

Please would you tell me why you think that I am at fault to apply the proper water treatment processes and do every job correctly?