Problems with Stelrad

[DaleRCL]

Hi Guys, I am a plumber and I am currently having a problem with an install I did about a year ago. I wonder if any of you have had similar experiences or can offer any advice.

I was asked by a builder that I do a lot of work for to strip out all of the radiators in a bungalow and replace them and the pipework with 8 new stelrad concord plane radiators. I supplied the rads.

We stripped out all the heating pipework to within about 2 metres of an Ideal Mexico floor standing boiler (the customer did not want to change the boiler) All the new pipework was run accross the loft space and dropped down in the corners of rooms for 8 stelrad concord plane rads, 2 towel rails and 1 purmorad radiator (in the garage) all the rads were brand new. As usual we filled the system on completion and then drained it cold, we then filled it again, ran it for a few hours then drained it again, then filled it for the 3rd time and added an inhibitor. This is how we left it.

Then in January I got a phone call direct from the customer to say that they had a leak on one of the rads, I assumed it would be just on a compression nut on one of the valves so went round there and it was actually coming from somewhere in the middle of the rad between the front and the rear panel. I spoke to Plumb Center where I got the rads from, they gave me Stelrads number and the gut I spoke to at Stelrad told me to remove the defective rad and send back to them for testing via Plumb Center (Stelrad would not attend site to look at it). By the time I went back to the customer, another one had sarted leaking so I removed them both and took them straight to Plumb Center.

It then took Stelrad 4 weeks to collect them from Plumb Center then another 2 weeks to tell me they weren't going to take responsibility for it and that it was an installation fault. They said that there were flux deposits in the system and that these deposits had eaten through the radiators.

I find this very hard to swallow as I have done many similar installations in my time as a plumber and always use the same process regarding flushing/filling etc and have never come up against this problem before.

Since then 3 more of the Stelrad radiators have started leaking in the same way and understandably, the customer wants 8 new rads fully fitted free of charge. I am in no position to do this and even if I were, dont feel that I should have to as I feel that I have done nothing wrong. The customer has written to the builder saying that he has 7 days to rectify the situation or they will take him to court, he in turn has written the same letter to me.

Both the customer and the builder agree with me that Stelrad are at fault and we are all on good terms with one another. But obvoiously in order to get to the bottom of it we all need to take one another to court relating to who had a contract with whom.

The builder feels that I should get an independent survey done by a credible person in case it does go to court and I can use this report (should it be in my favour) as ammunition against Stelrad.

Sorry for the how long winded it all is, but I know there are some very experienced, learned guys on this forum and would massively appreciate any feedback anyone could give me.

Thanks
Dale

 

[45yearsagasman]

First thing to do is take a water sample from the system and have it analysed and then you may have some comeback.
I can remember a site that had multiple rad failures and the eventual cause was found to be swarf left in the rads during manufacture.

 

[DaleRCL]

Thanks Gasman,

I am going to speak to somebody at the the institute of plumbers tomorrow about getting an independent test carried out. I will ask them about doing a water test too.

 

[silverback]

What flux did you use, it may be worth contacting the flux manufacturer and asking them if they believe their flux could do this to a radiator, in my opinion most fluxes disolve in water, so it would not have the ability to eat through steel, you need as much ammunition as you can get, so get a letter or email from the flux manufacturer, most of these companies rely on the fact that most installers can't be bothered with the hassle and walk away, don't let them get away with it.

 

[gas4you]

Take your own water sample and send it off to Sentinel for testing.

They offer this as an independent professional service.

Don't trust Stelrad over anything to do with tests. They will always find in their favour.

 

[Agile]

You write well and that gives me the impression that you are intelligent and would do a good job.

However, I note that you did not use X300 or other cleanser when you fitted the rads. Why not? I would have sold that to you for £8.

You say that you are "not in a position" to replace the rads which might cost say £500. I would ask why not assuming that you are a normal working person? Next comes the question about insurance. Do you have insurance and do you think that might cover the cost of the claim? Having said that I would never want to spoil my insurance record by claiming for a relatively small amount. There is often an excess anyway.

If I came across rads which had pinholed then I would immediately suspect that oxygen is being drawn into the system and pumping over is the obvious cause. Did you check this and what did you find?

There is no way that I could expect that there is any manufacturing fault and the only cause can be a fault with the system, either incorrect water treatment or almost certainly pumping over or other source off oxygen entering the system which will have made the water very brown-black. What did you find when you checked this? As an experienced plumber I am sure that you have dealt with many problems with holed rads like this before.

Very rarely this can also be caused by electrical earthing problems, Doitall can tell you about a case he knows of. Did you check that?

When the value of a claim is only £500 it would be madness to let the customer sue you and a solicitor/barrister would start at £1500 for a simple case, then you need an expert witness and they start at £600. You would be likely to lose the case and pay out say £5000 minimum.

Also be aware that you have no independent proof that you did any water treatment at all.

An interesting aspect is to what extent to which you and the builder are to shoulder the blame. Depending on the facts I am sure that I could put together a case putting some of the blame on the builder.

Sorry if you dont like some of what I have said, but I am trying to be objective and get you to realise that the best and cheapest way to deal with this is by accepting some/all the cost without involving any legal action. Everyone knows that judges think all plumbers are cowboys and overcharge and they will start from a prejudiced stance.

The CIPHE might have a scheme to defend members in cases like this bu that would only apply if they had investigated the claim and concluded that you are not significantly to blame. Your own insurance would also possibly do this too.

Tony

 

[expertgasman]

I can remember a site that had multiple rad failures and the eventual cause was found to be swarf left in the rads during manufacture.[/quote]

I have sympathy with the OP, but surely swarf would only cause a reaction in the prescence of oxygen, again indicating an install fault. The swarf should have been cleared with a proper pre commissioning flush.

Having said that swarf won't get through a drain cock, which is why I would always use a PF machine.

 

[Agile]

Failure of rads due to metallic swarf would usually be caused by a metal with a different electro potential like copper.

I would not normally expect significant problems from steel swarf which is what one would expect a radiator manufacturer to have left in a rad.

I would also hope that the inhibitor would reduce/prevent that.

That begs the question as to WHICH inhibitor did you use?

I always use either Sentinel or rarely Fernox products in the knowledge that they should be the best and have the facilities to test and back up any problems like this thread.

 

[45yearsagasman]

Quote:-Failure of rads due to metallic swarf would usually be caused by a metal with a different electro potential like copper.

I would not normally expect significant problems from steel swarf which is what one would expect a radiator manufacturer to have left in a rad.

The fact that remains is that swarf was found to be the cause in the multiple rad failures that I experienced.I read the report.I'm not saying that this was the cause here but offering an example of what may be a contributing factor.
You would not expect manufacturers to leave swarf in a rad.

 

[silverback]

I think everyone is missing the point, with all this talk about oxygen precence and swarf, in the OP's post he clearly stated that Stelrad tests results stated "They said that there were flux deposits in the system and that these deposits had eaten through the radiators".

So Stelrad are stating that flux has caused the leaks, nothing else, so what flux did he use and would it be possible for the flux to eat through steel when disolved in water.

 

[DaleRCL]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all your posts, the flux I used was everflux. I have always used this flux and the same commissioning process as stated in the original post and never had one radiator go like this on me before.

I will certainly take my own water sample and ask everflux to provide me with a letter stating what their flux is capable of as I have spoken to an expert witness today and he wants to charge £200 per hour for his time, if I go down this route I may aswell just pay to replace the rads. To be honest I think if you were to tip a pot of flux on a radiator with no water in it, it still shouldn't/wouldn't eat through it, let alone in a fully running system.

Agile, I appreciate your honesty and objectiveness and am willing to hear any criticisms and advice you may have. You're quite right, I did not use an x300 to cleanse the system as to be honest I was never taught that that is a vital part of commissioning(in retrospect, I may be wrong). The cost of the rads is more to the tune of £2000 as they are heavy duty designer rads. If they were in the region of £500 I would probably swallow my pride and just change them regardless of who is right or wrong to save all the hassle. Unfortunately my insurance only covers me for 3rd party damage and not for what is deemed to be putting my own work right.

Silverback, thanks for pointing out that yes, Stelrad have specifically said in their report that flux deposits have eaten through the steel so with this in mind, I just have to specifically prove that this is not the case, not suggest other factors that it may be.

Thanks again to everyone, I will let you know if there are any further developments.

 

[Agile]

Using X300 to clean a system is meant to specifically remove flux residues.

To quote from the bottle " For removal of flux, installation debris and sludge from new central heating systems".

It goes on to say "To cleanse a new system in accordance with BS7593 : 1992, X300 should be circulated for a minimum period of one hour.

Had you used this product, if excess flux is the cause, then that should have prevented the problem.

You did not mention the water quality or say anything about pumping over!

You should write to Everflux to encourage them to write back as you need everything in writing. They may be cagey though.

What inhibitor did you use? Did you put an inhibitor label on the boiler? If not what proof do you have that you used any? You can also write to them about the problem.

Insurance has some odd quirks but I dont at this point see why it should not cover you for the damage you allegedly caused to the owners rads.

What input did the builder have to what you did? Did he tell you to do everything properly by the book? Or did he say " look ere Dale, I dont want you wasting any money on them chems, just shove in the rads and then **** off".

Tony

 

[Agile]

Hi Guys,

Silverback, thanks for pointing out that yes, Stelrad have specifically said in their report that flux deposits have eaten through the steel so with this in mind, I just have to specifically prove that this is not the case, not suggest other factors that it may be.

That is NOT your task! Your task is to prove that what caused the rads to fail was not your fault.

So far I dont have enough information to reach any conclusion. I would have thought that excess flux would have holed the rads in a few weeks, not a year. Pumping over would seem far more likely to me after a year.

But without seeing the colour of the water, testing the PH or examining the pipework layout its impossible for me to come to any conclusion.

But regardless, I do hope that every installer reading this will ensure they do the job properly in future and use X300. Its no wonder that I am less competitive if I am the only one to use the correct chemicals.

 

[expertgasman]

Agile:
I would have thought that excess flux would have holed the rads in a few weeks, not a year.

ARE YOU ON DRUGS?

 

[expertgasman]

agreed