Pulling Main Fuse E-Petition

[JohnW2]

What we have is safe, if operated by properly trained & authorised people. We only use the cut-out fuse to energise up to the customer's isolator(s). Whatever folk say they have seen, we have strictly enforced requirements to wear PPE, failure to do so is at the risk of disciplinary action.

It's the concept which amazes me. Despite what you say, 'what we have' is clearly inherently unsafe, as illustrated by the fact that PPE is theoretically required in order to make it safe to energise/isolate an installation or even to replace a blown fuse ... yet the switch was invented at least 200 years ago. It is surely far more logical to remove a hazard than to devise and utilise methods in an attempt to minimise the effects of that hazard?

Is there any situation outside the world of the DNOs in which this approach would be considered acceptable? Would you regard it as acceptable, say, for a piece of industrial machinery to be installed such that the only way it could be isolated from its electricity supply (or its protective fuses replaced) would be to pull live fuses, provided it was only 'allowed' that such operations could be undertaken by suitably trained and 'authorised' personnel wearing appropriate PPE?

Unless a major project is brought into being there would only be a very slow accumulation of some other design which would make it worse as there would be confusion.

That surely is a very weak argument which, if generally applied, would mean that you would still be installing cutouts designed in the early 20th century? If the individuals concerned were that easily confused by being faced with cutouts of differing designs, then either their training or suitability for the job would surely be in question? I would have thought that it would take no genius to recognise the difference between cutouts with and without switches.

Going back to the 2,000,000 customers at the rate of 3/team/day to change them - work it out for yourselves

I'm pretty certain that I would have expressed similar 'amazement' at least 30 years ago, so the question really relates to how many of those 2m customers have had replacement or new cutouts installed in the last 30+ years.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Deleted member 192609]

"Westie",

I draw your attention to the Electricity at Work Regulations...



Means for cutting off the supply and for isolation

12.—(1) Subject to paragraph (3), where necessary to prevent danger, suitable means (including, where appropriate, methods of identifying circuits) shall be available for–

(a)cutting off the supply of electrical energy to any electrical equipment; and
(b)the isolation of any electrical equipment.
(2) In paragraph (1), “isolation” means the disconnection and separation of the electrical equipment from every source of electrical energy in such a way that this disconnection and separation is secure.

(3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to electrical equipment which is itself a source of electrical energy but, in such a case as is necessary, precautions shall be taken to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, danger.



So basically the DNOs are breaking this regulation aren't they?

What am I supposed to do if I'm called to a property where a DIYer has severed one of the meter tails. I've currently got a live, uninsulated conductor hanging around where anyone can touch it and I'm not "allowed" to isolate it because it would involve touching "DNO property"...

Sensible?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

"Westie",

I draw your attention to the Electricity at Work Regulations...
.
.
So basically the DNOs are breaking this regulation aren't they?

I don't see how, in respect of the equipment and those who are authorised to work on it, the EAWR is being contravened.

What am I supposed to do if I'm called to a property where a DIYer has severed one of the meter tails. I've currently got a live, uninsulated conductor hanging around where anyone can touch it and I'm not "allowed" to isolate it because it would involve touching "DNO property"...

Sensible?

What would not be sensible would be to legislate for, and make people pay for, provisions which would be of use in a situation like that, so rare must it be.

And were you ever to encounter it, the answer is simple. You call the emergency number for the DNO, and remain on site to supervise the meter tails and prevent anyone touching them if in your judgement the householder cannot be trusted to do that himself.

 

[ricicle]

Make no mistake - a gap is going to emerge between generating capacity and demand which will be so large that there will have to be ways to implement controlled rolling blackouts.

Is it just me or does anyone else look at retail lighting in clothes shops, supermarkets and the like and think that it really is an appalling amount of lighting that is being used here just to sell a few items (especially clothing shops !)

 

[ban-all-sheds]

And then there are the ones that dispense with doors and have warm air curtains instead

 

[westie101]

What am I supposed to do if I'm called to a property where a DIYer has severed one of the meter tails. I've currently got a live, uninsulated conductor hanging around where anyone can touch it and I'm not "allowed" to isolate it because it would involve touching "DNO property"...

Do you realy, honestly think that any DNO employee would get upset with you for making a situation safe in what is an emergency situation?

I've attended fires where a Fire Officer has handed me the cut-out fuse as I got out of the car, he had made the scene safe!

There is a huge huge difference between a planned job, or if electricians are pulling cut-out fuses to do a CU change (or worse doing them live), a badly planned job.

If you are willing to operate under the same restrictions we do, with annual refreshers (you pay) snap audits and a legal way round the EAWR as you will be exposing live metalwork in a lot of cases no problem.

Ah but you say the EAWR applies to the DNOs, it does but before the regs came into being a huge amount of work was carried out to justify us live working, something that never included contracting electricians, so all that would need addressing!

I'm pretty certain that I would have expressed similar 'amazement' at least 30 years ago, so the question really relates to how many of those 2m customers have had replacement or new cutouts installed in the last 30+ years.

Onlly a small percentage of them, there are rarely projects to do wholesale changes, so they are done on an as need basis!

It's the concept which amazes me. Despite what you say, 'what we have' is clearly inherently unsafe, as illustrated by the fact that PPE is theoretically required in order to make it safe to energise/isolate an installation or even to replace a blown fuse ... yet the switch was invented at least 200 years ago. It is surely far more logical to remove a hazard than to devise and utilise methods in an attempt to minimise the effects of that hazard?

Is there any situation outside the world of the DNOs in which this approach would be considered acceptable? Would you regard it as acceptable, say, for a piece of industrial machinery to be installed such that the only way it could be isolated from its electricity supply (or its protective fuses replaced) would be to pull live fuses, provided it was only 'allowed' that such operations could be undertaken by suitably trained and 'authorised' personnel wearing appropriate PPE?

We do not use switches on any part of the LV networks, all protection is by fuses, all making live/dead is by fuses all fault restoration/location is by fuses. (having a 400A fuse blow whilst you are holding the fuse carrier is interesting)

The equipment is designed to be operated that way or do you think we just buy stuff from a back street trader?

It is only unsafe in the hands of untrained and unauthorised people not wearing the appropriate PPE which is a wholey acceptable position under H & S legislation., if it wasn't do you think as an industry we would have been allowed to continue.

As for the machinery question, there is no reason why it should not be! Have you ever seen an old DC board with knife switches and totally bare, even in recent times they have still existed and been operated safely.

 

[Deleted member 192609]

How long would it realistically take to a train a qualified, registered electrician to isolate by pulling the cut out fuse?

Not long I wouldn't have thought, so why doesn't it happen?

If it's dangerous to allow electricians to pull the fuse, why do some DNOs permit it?

 

[JohnW2]

It's the concept which amazes me. Despite what you say, 'what we have' is clearly inherently unsafe, as illustrated by the fact that PPE is theoretically required in order to make it safe to energise/isolate an installation or even to replace a blown fuse ... yet the switch was invented at least 200 years ago. It is surely far more logical to remove a hazard than to devise and utilise methods in an attempt to minimise the effects of that hazard?

We do not use switches on any part of the LV networks, all protection is by fuses, all making live/dead is by fuses all fault restoration/location is by fuses.

I obviously understand all that - and it is those concepts which amaze me!

It is only unsafe in the hands of untrained and unauthorised people not wearing the appropriate PPE which is a wholey acceptable position under H & S legislation., if it wasn't do you think as an industry we would have been allowed to continue.

No. As I said, the practices are inherently unsafe - otherwise there would be no need for specific training, authorisation and PPE in order to mitigate the risks. If there were no alternatives then that would obviously be the best that one could achieve- but there is, in fact, a simple alternative that would remove most of that inherent unsafeness. It might take a number of decades to 'phase in' switched cutouts if they were only installed whenever a new cutout was needed - but if that process is never started, the situation will never change.

Is there any situation outside the world of the DNOs in which this approach would be considered acceptable? Would you regard it as acceptable, say, for a piece of industrial machinery to be installed such that the only way it could be isolated from its electricity supply (or its protective fuses replaced) would be to pull live fuses, provided it was only 'allowed' that such operations could be undertaken by suitably trained and 'authorised' personnel wearing appropriate PPE?

As for the machinery question, there is no reason why it should not be! Have you ever seen an old DC board with knife switches and totally bare, even in recent times they have still existed and been operated safely.

As with the cutout issue, I'm not talking about the legacy situation but, rather, what is (or should be) considered acceptable for installation (as new or replacement equipment) in 2012. Are you suggesting that (DNOs aside!!) totally exposed knife switches should be regarded as acceptable for new equipment today, provided that those using it are appropriately 'trained, authorised and equipped'?

Kind Regards, John

 

[westie101]

(as new or replacement equipment)

Ah you didn't put that qualification in your original post1

The only modification that has been seen to more modern equipment as installed is the addition of more and more shrouding of live parts, similarly with cut-outs. But operationally no difference (though modern designs make it very difficult to connect monitoring & fault finding equipment when live)

I know what you are saying regarding the concept of the switched cut-out, but face it the industry (not just myself) has seen no need for them so any argument for is a dead end in present circumstances.

As for the hazards any work near live electricity is inherently unsafe but as long as appropriate risk control measures are in place we will continue to do it.

 

[westie101]

If it's dangerous to allow electricians to pull the fuse, why do some DNOs permit it?

A definitive list of those that do would be of assistance!

Or is that some DNO's (most?) turn a blind eye!
The only cases I can find where it is expressly permitted is if an electrician is employed and trained by a supplier. There are schemes that allow this but exclude where the electrician is working on his own behalf doing, say, a CU change

 

[Deleted member 192609]

So basically the DNOs are just using the whole situation as an earner then...

 

[EFLImpudence]

http://www.ssepd.co.uk/Connections/TechnicalInformation/ElectricalContractors/RemovalOfFuses/

Would you refuse to work for them?

Would your views be different if you did?

 

[westie101]

So basically the DNOs are just using the whole situation as an earner then...

More the suppliers actually as a lot of the DNOs don't offer the service of pulling the fuse for work on a CU! (the odd one or two I have to arrange tend not to be charged)

But why not? Would an electrician do it free gratis?

 

[westie101]

Would you refuse to work for them?

Would your views be different if you did?

No issues with SSE and their procedures, they have made that decision and it is up to them.
A read of it shows that it is not a straight forward turn up & pull the fuse, but a bit onerous on notifications.

Interesting to note that they specify what safety precautions SSE staff have to take but leave it up to the individual to decide for themselves

But it does include the part about training

Trade Associations shall ensure that there members are competent to remove and replace live cutout fuses ensuring safety is maintained at all times.

So not open to everyone

 

[Deleted member 192609]

No-one is suggesting that everyone be allowed to pull the fuse... Just qualified electricians who are registered with and have been inspected by one of the recognised bodies (NICEIC, ECA etc...)