Query regarding Amendment 3, 2015 to the Wiring Regulations (England)

[PBC_1966]

Here a plastic CU is too dangerous to be used. A half-hour's train ride away the same CU is safe.

But only according to the London Fire Brigade, apparently!

There are some peculiarities within local building codes over here: NM cable is considered perfectly good for residential use across most of the nation, but apparently is too dangerous for the City of Chicago and some of the surrounding municipalities, which require everything to be run in conduit.

Oh well, at least there's no plastic versus metal debate when it comes to load center enclosures, since they're all metal.

 

[JohnW2]

On a more serious note, I wonder if they've thought of the implications for the more custom end of the home automation spectrum? ... For once that is a rhetorical Q - I know damn well what the answer is.

It seems to me that what they have probably 'forgotten' to do is include a minimum figures for 'normal maximum operating current', or something like that, in the definition of an 'ASSEMBLY'. If they had done that, with a figure of, say, >20A, it would let switched FCUs (or unswitched ones with neons), some switches with neons, dimmers and things such as you mention etc. 'off the hook', and would seem (at least to me) to be more sensible.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

And an automation box of tricks controlling 4 x 6A lighting circuits?

Maybe it should not be linked to CUs and "associated switchgear" - maybe there should be a standalone reg applying to all enclosures which requires a certain fire-resistance performance. Ideally a performance already specified in an EN standard which applies generically to enclosures containing LV or ELV gubbins¹.






¹ Technical term.

 

[stillp]

Home automation devices have their own standards, as do wiring accessories. Neither of them are switchgear assemblies.

 

[JohnW2]

Home automation devices have their own standards, as do wiring accessories. Neither of them are switchgear assemblies.

That's obviously common sense - so should not the definition of "switchgear assemblies' be clear in excluding them?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The term "switchgear assemblies" is no more defined in BS 7671 than is "non-combustible". So if we are to use the definition(s) in other standards not referenced by BS 7671 for "switchgear assemblies" then we have to be allowed to use the definition(s) in other standards not referenced by BS 7671 for "non-combustible".

Anything else would be illogical, inconsistent and unjustifiable, and brings us back to what I said earlier about disreputable behaviour. JPEL/64 is comprised of engineers, FCS, and they must, must, MUST behave like them. If they fail to do so in a professional capacity then they are bringing their organisations into disrepute.

 

[JohnW2]

The term "switchgear assemblies" is no more defined in BS 7671 than is "non-combustible".

Very true - but my comment to stillp which you have intercepted was a reference to my exchanges with him about BS EN 61439-3, not BS7671.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Ah.

I brought up the fact that BS 7671 requires similar "switchgear assemblies" to comply with BS EN 61439-3. No custom-built box-o-tricks can do that.

 

[stillp]

Why not?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

OK - so I go and get myself an enclosure, some DIN rail, and inside I stick various PLCs/arduinos/raspberry pis/veroboards with 7400-series ICs/whatevers, timers, protective devices, contactors, signalling/monitoring equipment.....

How do I certify compliance with BS EN 61439-3?

 

[stillp]

Why would you want to?
But the answer is that you would buy a copy of the standard (and its normative references), build your 'gubbins' in accordance with the provisions therein, perform the required verifications, and prepare the necessary documents.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Why would you want to?

Because BS 7671 requires it.

But the answer is that you would buy a copy of the standard (and its normative references), build your 'gubbins' in accordance with the provisions therein, perform the required verifications, and prepare the necessary documents.

As I said:

On a more serious note, I wonder if they've thought of the implications for the more custom end of the home automation spectrum? ... For once that is a rhetorical Q - I know damn well what the answer is.

Your answer is correct. But it describes a process so utterly impractical that I was equally correct to say no custom-built box-o-tricks can do that.

 

[stillp]

Why would you want to?

Because BS 7671 requires it.

But the answer is that you would buy a copy of the standard (and its normative references), build your 'gubbins' in accordance with the provisions therein, perform the required verifications, and prepare the necessary documents.

As I said:

On a more serious note, I wonder if they've thought of the implications for the more custom end of the home automation spectrum? ... For once that is a rhetorical Q - I know damn well what the answer is.

Your answer is correct. But it describes a process so utterly impractical that I was equally correct to say no custom-built box-o-tricks can do that.

What does BS7671 have to say about home automation controllers? (Genuine question).
I don't see what is impractical about making an assembly (or any other product) comply with its relevant standard. Thousands of manufacturers do it all the time. OK, in the case of 61439, a few hundred manufacturers, and in the case of Part 3 of that standard, only a few tens thereof. It is also a legal requirement to demonstrate compliance with the Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations. for example by conformity to a harmonised standard, of which EN 61439 is an example.

 

[stillp]

Home automation devices have their own standards, as do wiring accessories. Neither of them are switchgear assemblies.

That's obviously common sense - so should not the definition of "switchgear assemblies' be clear in excluding them?

Kind Regards, John

It doesn't need to. It is clear from the Scope of the standards.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

What does BS7671 have to say about home automation controllers? (Genuine question).

421.1.201 Within domestic (household) premises, consumer units and similar switchgear assemblies shall comply with BS EN 61439-3....

I don't see what is impractical about making an assembly (or any other product) comply with its relevant standard.

I repeat:

OK - so I go and get myself an enclosure, some DIN rail, and inside I stick various PLCs/arduinos/raspberry pis/veroboards with 7400-series ICs/whatevers, timers, protective devices, contactors, signalling/monitoring equipment.....

How do I certify compliance with BS EN 61439-3?

Do you really think the process you described is practical for me to do?

Thousands of manufacturers do it all the time.

But I'm not talking about manufacturers and (even relatively) mass produced items.

On a more serious note, I wonder if they've thought of the implications for the more custom end of the home automation spectrum?