Question on combined PD & PP

[~dadam02~]

We're just about to submit our plans for a 2 storey extension and out of courtesy we showed our neighbours our plans and its been issues ever since. With this in light i'd really appreciate if someone can provide some guidance as to whether there are any issues with what we are planning. My architect doesn't think so but something isn't sitting right.

Below are our existing ground floor plans with grey boxes denoting the area we wish to extend under permitted development (both extend <=3m from the existing rear walls).



Our neighbour disproves of the 3m extension to our rear living room which will create a 'tunnelling effect' for next door and block the light to their corresponding living room. As i understand it, it is permitted development so there is nothing they can do.

Below is the proposed ground floor plans, this would require us to submit a planning application to change the use of garage space to habitable use. There is nothing in either the PD or PP applications that relates to the blurring of the internal walls of the garage/kitchen to create the open plan living space.



Our neighbour has enlisted the help of a surveyor friend who has suggested that what we are trying to do is an exploitation of the rules and that we should be forced to submit a single application for PP as this is a single project (so that they can then object on the basis of the 45 degree line from their living room). Supposedly they have discussed this with the local planning department who agree.

My architect is intending to submit the PD application this week, wait a couple of weeks then submit the PD application. So my question, is there an issue with this planning strategy? Do i have to have built the part (hopefully) granted PD before i submit an application for PP or can i simultaneously submit both? Am i right in thinking my neighbour can only comment/object to those points being applied for, so in my case this would be the change of use of garage to habitable space?

I hope this makes sense, sorry its been a long, hot and sticky day.

Thanks in advance.

 

[wessex101]

Hallelujah - some decent plans for a change.

There will be some planning experts along shortly but in the meantime is the kitchen part and rear section of garage original or extensions?

 

[~dadam02~]

Ha!

Yes everything you see on the existing floor plans is original to the existing house, built 1976.

I had also added the first floor plans which all fall within PP but I don't see there being any issues with those so just keeping this to the ground floor issues.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

There's nothing wrong with exploiting sloppily drafted legislation- provided your schemes fall within PD provisions (there's a section on here somewhere about monstrosities allowed under PD, yours looks quite restrained) then the planners can huff and puff all they like but they have no power to prohibit the schemes. Good idea to make a start on the PD stuff (a good start is to create the foundations) before getting the PP application in- granting of PP might come with a removal of PD rights.

 

[wessex101]

Right I'll have a go. Assuming it all fits in within the required dimensions and the permitted development rights are intact then the ground floor extensions would appear to be PD.

I believe the PD works would have to be built and completed before the application for the second phase of the first floor extension could be submitted if you wanted to keep them separate.

You can try to be clever and get a lawful development certificate for the ground floor extensions and then put in the application for the entire scheme, ground and first as the planners are not supposed to refuse something that would be PD but that could be rather risky given the neighbour's stance. So might be something you have to take to appeal if the planners decide to be awkward.

 

[~dadam02~]

Thanks for your input, just to be clear the first floor extension to create the master bedroom follows the line of the existing kitchen (4m extension on first floor from the existing rear wall) so would be built on top of the existing roofline, ie there is no dependancy on the extension to the ground floor (under PD) for this to be built.

The following is what we were going to submit for the entire PP application:

"Part two/part single side/rear extensions, partial conversion of existing attached garage into habitable accommodation following partial demolition of existing house"

 

[wessex101]

Thanks for your input, just to be clear the first floor extension to create the master bedroom follows the line of the existing kitchen (4m extension on first floor from the existing rear wall) so would be built on top of the existing roofline, ie there is no dependancy on the extension to the ground floor (under PD) for this to be built.

The following is what we were going to submit for the entire PP application:

"Part two/part single side/rear extensions, partial conversion of existing attached garage into habitable accommodation following partial demolition of existing house"

Oh yeah I didn't spot that. In that case I don't see why they couldn't be treated as two completely separate projects.

Bit confused by the second part....why are you submitting a planning application for the entire scheme when I thought the point was you are treating them as two separate projects.

 

[~dadam02~]

You're right I think I have the PP bit wrong, the entire PP application should cover the knock down and rebuild of half of the existing garage whilst converting to habitable space and 2nd floor rear and side extension. There is no rear extension as part of the PP application.

 

[wessex101]

Back up there a minute. What's this " knock down and rebuild half of existing garage whilst converting to habitable space"?

I'm getting really confused here so bear with me. I assumed you were trying to establish 2 separate projects, the 2 ground floor rear extensions and conversion of part of garage look like they should be PD. The first floor rear and side extension will need a planning application.

If you are going to knock down the rear section of garage and rebuild it it becomes a side extension and as it is joined to the rear extension it will probably be too wide to be PD and then the whole argument about the ground floor rear extension being PD starts to fall apart. You are straying into difficult territory.

 

[~dadam02~]

That's a really interesting point, thanks for bringing it up. In essence we just want to pinch half the garage to create the open plan living room, however next door did a similar project (albeit all under PP) and to achieve it they knocked down that half of the garage and rebuilt it. I hadn't considered the impact of knocking down to create a side extension. Assume we can just use the existing walls of the garage and build out as necessary and avoid the side extension issue?

 

[wessex101]

Probably! But as the neighbours are making waves and stirring up the planners you will have to be very careful how you describe things.

I'm not sure why I seem to be the only person commenting on this thread, there are plenty or regulars here who know the planning rules far better than I do but they seem to have gone all shy.

The plans look like they have been drawn by a professional (for a change) so you probably need to go through all this with your designer to agree a strategy for Planning, they will have a better grasp of the local planning policies and any specific site constraints better than some random numpty off the internet.

 

[~dadam02~]

I agree, best to make sure to avoid anything that will give the neighbours ammo. So what we are saying is that PP should only cover the 2nd floor rear and side extension, PD covering the rear extension and all other work internally to join the dots is neither here nor there. I have enlisted an architect and he seems confident of the outcome, and has drawn according to the local policy but having read this board silently for some time i know there are many knowledgeable folk on here so thought it prudent to run our ideas to make sure we hadn't missed anything.

This has been a great help, so thanks again.

 

[~dadam02~]

There's nothing wrong with exploiting sloppily drafted legislation- provided your schemes fall within PD provisions (there's a section on here somewhere about monstrosities allowed under PD, yours looks quite restrained) then the planners can huff and puff all they like but they have no power to prohibit the schemes. Good idea to make a start on the PD stuff (a good start is to create the foundations) before getting the PP application in- granting of PP might come with a removal of PD rights.

I completely missed this post so apologies. What are the grounds where PD rights can be removed?

I've just had a look on the planning portal and it says the following:

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200187/your_responsibilities/37/planning_permission/2

Permitted Development Rights withdrawn

You should also note that the local planning authority may have removed some of your permitted development rights by issuing an 'Article 4' direction. This will mean that you have to submit a planning application for work which normally does not need one.

Article 4 directions are made when the character of an area of acknowledged importance would be threatened. They are most common in conservation areas. You will probably know if your property is affected by such a direction, but you can check with the local planning authority if you are not sure.

We're certainly not in an area of acknowledged importance so could they still remove PD?

 

[~dadam02~]

So we submitted our permitted development application for our ground floor extension which was approved (in a month, thanks local authority) however the day it was approved a lengthy letter of objection from our neighbours was also printed on our submission. Should my local authority have attached this letter to our submission as i was under the impression that no one was able to comment on a permitted development submission?

We are just about to submit full planning application for our 2nd floor extension and i'm concerned that the local authority have powers to remove our permitted development rights as part of this approval meaning our ground floor extension could be in danger. Am i panicking unnecessarily? If i got the builder round to begin digging the foundations and fill those with concrete is that enough to ensure our LDC remains in place and any removal of permitted development rights is irrelevant?

Thanks again in advance.

 

[wessex101]

Yes you are worrying unnecessarily.

There is no neighbour consultation in a certificate of lawfulness application but the neighbour must have been keeping an eye on the Council's planning applications website and sent an objection anyway. It carries no weight and I can only assume they have published it on the website by way of "keeping it on file". It's funny some of the random stuff you can find when you trawl through the applications.

It is quite unusual for your permitted development rights to be removed so it probably won't happen and of course you could appeal against it, in the unlikely event that it does, I believe it only comes into affect once you start to build that part of the project relevant to the application, so you would have to make sure you did the permitted development bit first.