Quick turnaround EICR certs

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Hiya,

So Ive read on the forums and EICR done properly should take a good few hours.

I know of an electrician who did one on a 2 bed flat in about 15 minutes.

How extensive should their checks be. Is there anyone that holds dodgy cert distributors to account for their work? Or they can go ahead charging £180 for 15 minutes work and emailing out a cert without any recourse whatsoever?

Also from what these guys charge do they have to pay a certain cost for each certificate they issue, or is it prett much all profit?
 
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So Ive read on the forums and EICR done properly should take a good few hours.
It should.

I know of an electrician who did one on a 2 bed flat in about 15 minutes.
That was not an electrical inspection.

How extensive should their checks be. Is there anyone that holds dodgy cert distributors to account for their work? Or they can go ahead charging £180 for 15 minutes work and emailing out a cert without any recourse whatsoever?
I'm afraid there are criminals everywhere and people who don't really know what to expect.

Click here https://electrical.theiet.org/media/2221/bs_7671_2008_amd3-2015_model_forms-eicr.pdf
and see all the things that are supposed to be checked.

Also from what these guys charge do they have to pay a certain cost for each certificate they issue, or is it prett much all profit?
It costs nothing; it's just pieces of paper.
Anyone may (is allowed to) pretend to carry out EICRs.
 
The EICR is not restricted to domestic or the new landlord rules. It has been done for years to satisfy the electricity at work act. The normal is to test 20% each year, and a different 20%, so over 5 years likely all has been tested, but this is controlled by the building manager, it is also only part of the electrical testing, we also have the inspection and testing of in-service electrical equipment, and often two different people do the two tests. In fact often more than two people where vending machines and central heating boilers are inspected by experts in the field.

Often there is a little give and take and agreement is reached about who tests what, but for example the chandeliers in my living and dinning room would be tested by the in-service electrical equipment guy, but supply to the plug in ceiling rose would be the EICR guy, the EICR as name suggests is just the installation, not the equipment in the installation.

BS 7671:2008 said:
The Regulations apply to items of electrical equipment only so far as selection and application of the equipment in the installation are concerned. The Regulations do not deal with requirements for the construction of assemblies of electrical equipment, which are required to comply with appropriate standards.
I would guess the 2018 version very similar, so only the installation.

However
Building regulations 2010 said:
“electrical installation” means fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on
the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter;
so if not portable then would be considered as fixed, and the definition between portable and fixed depends on weight and if it has wheels, so the concrete batching plant I worked on which was transported with 22 articulated wagons is considered portable, as it has wheels, but my washing machine is fixed as over weight and no wheels. There was a time with old Bendix washing machines when they were bolted to the floor.

The boiler is a problem, as often you need to be gas safe to remove covers, so the electrician could not check even if he wanted to. So we have a poorly worded law. This is also common, it is a case of let the courts decide. So once people are taken to court, we will build up case law, but to do an EICR all it says is “qualified person” means a person competent to undertake the inspection and testing required under regulation 3(1) and any further investigative or remedial work in accordance with the electrical safety standards;

I do note that he must be able to do the remedial work, so the guy doing the home buyers report in spite of likely having a degree, may not qualify as a qualified person, but this is a grey area, there is nothing to say the inspector must use codes
  • C1 = Danger Present (FAIL)
  • C2 = Potentially Dangerous (FAIL)
  • C3 = Improvement Recommended.
  • FI = Further Investigation Required (FAIL)
  • N/V = Not Verified (Unable to verify)
  • N/A = Not Applicable.
  • LIM = Limitation (Not tested or inspected)
He can submit a written report, and lets face it 230 volt is Potentially Dangerous, so although one can quote the IP codes for dangerous, the Potentially Dangerous is rather open, and if the inspector decided not to use C2 no one can say he is wrong, he could class all as C3.

The FI code would apply where visual inspection has noted some thing wrong with the DNO equipment, yet it is not on the consumers side so not part of the Landlord regulations.

But if I was to inspect a small flat which was only built 5 years ago, it may be clear there is nothing wrong, it would take more than 15 minutes to take the readings required to complete the standard form, but when I did my C&G 2391 I was given around an hour to test a small board, and really not enough time, if I did a house to same standard not sure I could do it in a day, and remember one can't walk away from a dangerous installation, so one must allow time to remove danger, this could be drop tails for a circuit or put a lock on the MCB, but it could also mean waiting for the DNO, so most electricians I know will only attempt two EICR's per day, larger firms may be able to cover when the electrician is delayed, but if the home is not inhabitable it is down to the electrician to find alternative accommodation, daft as he does not need to pay for it, so a call to most expensive hotel in town will do.

However either he needs to make safe, or arrange for some where else to live for the occupants. So this would normally mean disconnecting the faulty circuit. Since I use to live in a caravan with no mains power, I do wonder what is required to make some where inhabitable? Think lights, heating if winter, and water, and means of cooking. I have a torch, portable gas hob and bottle, and aqua-role so with no electric would say house was inhabitable. No worse to living in tent.

But as to court case, one which comes to mind is Emma Shaw, she was killed by an electric shock, and it was due to a whole list of things done wrong, but at the end it was the guy who employed the electricians mate to do the testing, as it was said he should have realised he did not have the skill required.

So if an person does an EICR in 15 minutes then it would seem home owner is the one to blame, as he knows he can't do the inspection in that time. We have the same where some one does 500 PAT tests per day, the building manager should know that can't be done, if unaware that he was only in home 15 minutes then maybe the tester at fault, but from the Emma Shaw case, it would seem if the guy does not have C&G 2391 then it is down to home owner, he should not have employed some one not qualified.

If the guy says he has the qualifications even if they turn out to be false, then likely the guy would be guilty, but I read the Emma Shaw report and thought that could have been me, I have used an electricians mate to take readings, also had some so called tradesmen who have told me they trained as an electrician but he was fitting a shower for me, and did a good job. But as home owner it is up to me to ensure regulations are complied with, for example planning permission, although the builder may arrange it all for me, it is up to me to ensure it is done.

The only exception seems to be Part P, where if the electrician has anything which points to being a scheme member, be it sign written van, or headed paperwork, or even an internet advert, then if he does not register the work, he is committing the offence.

I have questioned the use of forms with scheme providers logo on them, as the home owner is not likely to know what colour form is required to do it under a scheme, so if it has a scheme providers logo on them, one would expect to be done under the scheme system, but it seems this is not the case, you can buy the forms from electrical outlets with logo on them. Since it is a free down load from IET why would anyone buy a pad of forms unless trying to con people into thinking done under the scheme?

 
The EICR is not restricted to domestic or the new landlord rules. It has been done for years to satisfy the electricity at work act.
The EAWR may make use of it, but the "EICR" as we discuss it is a creation of BS7671, and it's nature and scope is define by BS7671.

upload_2021-10-19_15-40-9.png

... so, as above, for the purpose of a true "EICR", it is the BS7671 definition of its scope which matters, regardless of what the Building Regs might say. If someone/something (e.g. EAWR) wans some inspection with a different scope, then they are free to define a required inspection however they like, but it then would not be an "EICR" (per BS7671).

I actually suspect that the definition in the Building Regs probably suffers from imperfect wording, and those those who wrote it probably intended that "cables or fixed electrical equipment" referred only to equipment which was part of 'the installation' (as we understand it) (i.e.switches, sockets, JBs, CUs/DBs, FCUs, other switchgear etc.) and not to 'appliances' or other equipment powered by the installation (even if heavy, difficult to move and 'hard-wired').

Kind Regards, John
 
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My recent EICR took two people 2.5 hours, including time to upgrade the earth connection to the incoming cable before they left. £270 very well spent.
 
We have had it before where the government has used a term already in use. The class competent person was dropped by BS 7671:2018 after the government used it as the name of a scheme.

My version of BS 7671 still called it "Periodic Inspection Report" and chapter 62 + 63 says very little, it was another book which detailed how to do inspection and testing, it was published by IET but was not part of BS 7671 if it is part of BS 7671:2018 I am sorry for that.

The old BS 7671:2008 says
Periodic inspection comprising of a detailed examination of the installation shall be carried out without dismantling, or with partial dismantling as required, supplemented by appropriate tests from Chapter 61 to show that the requirements for disconnection times, as set out in Chapter 41 for protective devices. are complied with, to provide for:

I do seem to remember some thing about access to loft spaces, but it states "carried out without dismantling" and I know many remove MR16 lamps to check if hoods fitted or earths fitted, as to "with partial dismantling" it really does not make sense, to my mind you need to remove the covers from the CU can't see how you would test without, and also some sockets, I think the "without dismantling" is an error, what does BS 7671:2018 say?

However I can understand why some one reading that does not remove panel covers. I actually got out my hard copy to check, I have always done some dismantling to test and inspect.

I am told there is now a new book on inspecting and testing, but so rare I need to do it, I have not bought it. When I took my exam we had to use "IEE Guidance Note 3. Inspection & Testing, published by the Institution of Engineering and Technology" but the main provision is
BS 7671:2008 said:
621.4 The extent and results of the periodic inspection and testing of an installation, or any part of an installation, shall be recorded.
621.5 Periodic inspection and testing shall be undertaken by a competent person.
So as long as we say visual only inspection, then OK. As to Competent person. A person who possesses sufficient technical knowledge, relevant practical skills and experience for the nature of the electrical work undertaken and is able at all times to prevent danger and, where appropriate, injury to him/herself and others.

No reference to C&G 2381, 82, 91, 92 or any other examination.

I would say most use Electrical Safety First Best Practice Guide No. 4 (Issue 5) Electrical installation condition reporting: Classification Codes for domestic and similar electrical installations. as what we should and should not do.

But there are some points "Inadequate provision for socket-outlets" I can not see how a lack of sockets should be anything to do with the EICR, also "Older immersion heater without thermal cut-out" is only a problem where a thermal plastic header tank is used, I remember in parents house being sent to run off hot water due to it boiling, and then having to press the reset button on the immersion heated before it could be electrical heated again, house built 1954, and original immersion heater, so how old is the older immersion heater? And the boiling was due to the back boiler not electric.

And Code 3 for "An existing Electric Vehicle charging installation capable of charging a vehicle outside and connected to PME earth." really? Only code 3?
 
My version of BS 7671 still called it "Periodic Inspection Report" and chapter 62 + 63 says very little, it was another book which detailed how to do inspection and testing, it was published by IET but was not part of BS 7671 if it is part of BS 7671:2018 I am sorry for that.
In BS7671:2018, the relevant Chapter (now Chapter 65) is still called "Periodic Inspection and Testing", still says very little and, in fact virtually never mentions "EICR". In fact, the only place where it mentions "Electrical Installation Condition Report" (or "EICR") is when it refers one to the report template in the (for guidance) Appendix 6 - everywhere else in the chapter is talk only about "Periodic Inspections".

The (guidance) Appendix 6 is actually much more useful than Chapter 65, in as much as it gives a (4-page) 'list' of 'Examples of Items Requiring Inspection' in the course of an 'EICR'. It actually goes beyond your Building Regs definition of the "Electrical Installation", in as much as it includes ("visual inspection only") the DNO and supplier items including, and upstream of, the meter.

Whilst most (but not all) of that document seems sensible enough, one should remember that it derives from an offshoot of a trade organisation, not any sort of definitive 'authority'

Kind Regards, John
 
How do you check that an immersion heater has a thermal cutoff? I definitely have a plastic tank above the cupboard where the cylinder is.
 
How do you check that an immersion heater has a thermal cutoff? I definitely have a plastic tank above the cupboard where the cylinder is.
Good point, I know I have since it has tripped, and if there is a re-set button clearly it has a thermal cut out.

But where the only form of heating domestic water often the thermostat is not re-set-able but if you can see the reset as with this
upload_2021-10-21_10-20-54.png
can just see name reset to right of temperature selection than clearly OK, other wise not so sure, this
upload_2021-10-21_10-24-2.png
is the example shown without a reset, but since the cover normally needs removing to access the reset I really don't know how that tells you, I do remember my dad's was duel element and it did have a reset. And I seem to remember it did not require removal of cover to assess it.

A thermal setting plastic tank is no problem it is only the thermoplastic tanks, personally I think it should have been the tank banned after babies death the tanks used with solid fuel water heating often a back boiler are either steel or thermal setting plastic which is hard even when heated to boiling point.

The early immersion heaters often had an independent reset
shopping
this thermostat upload_2021-10-21_10-37-1.png does not have a reset, however it does have a thermal cut-out so whole thing needs replacing should it go wrong, the idea is if it has failed once, and over heated, it can fail again, so if it over heats whole thing needs replacing, however if over heating caused by other than the immersion heater then you do want to reset, but only way I can see to know if there is a thermal cut out is to google the part number.

Since there could be danger involved removing the cover on a live immersion heater, I hesitate on saying remove and look, I know when my dad's side boiler on Aga caused water to boil the noise was enough to alert anyone that something was wrong. Maybe the subject should be raised in a thread in plumbers section?
 
What's the opinion about mine (above)? Sorry for the enormous image!
 
Reading adverts it does seem the BT18 is a Backer 18 inches thermostat with non reset-able cutout, so OK but your point is valid there is no non destructive test to show OK.
 
I assume that the black button will pop up in the event of a fault. Can you tell me what the white wire is for? Thanks.
 

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