Real capactities of accessories?

[skenk]

Went to a flat yesterday to fix a 'collapsed ceiling' (wooden t&g false 'ceiling' falling in due to the weight of a piece of actual ceiling falling down due to a leak from upstairs flat). Rented property, absolute scum-hole as per a couple of the flat's i've been sent to by this slightly dubious landlord*.

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The fan, fitted in the t&g, was hanging out, no isolator and I wanted the light to see what I was doing without cooking myself with the halogen site jobby so unscrewed the switch to find some poor terminations and fan wired from 3-core flex, switched live on g/y & sharing terminals with t&e


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So far, so typical in this type of gaff (and there are many around the student areas here).

Asked the tenant, already suspicious, whats this (20A) switch for (the one above the lightswitch)?

A. 'The shower'

Wish I could say I've never seen that before but I changed one in another flat (same landlord) a couple months back (was a new install, by cowboys obviously, fortunately in that case the shower wasn't working due to the isolation valve being boxed in by a kitchen unit, no idea how it got past BC or even if the conversion was approved but that's another story . . .)

Anyway unscrewed the 'plate to take a look and to my surprise there was no sign of scorching or overheating at all. This has been like this for at least 6 years from what I can gather, I would have expected at least some sign of damage (8.5kw shower, 6mm cable, no insulation to be seen). It was an old MK switch right enough but still . . . .

I've now changed it for a 45Aer - shower is still on a 30A BS3036. RCD? you must be kidding . . . have advised landlord in writing (and the lack of cpc in fan cable) but no chance she's changing the CU or adding RCD tests all ok.

Anyway obviously cable and accessory ratings err on the side of caution but would it be normal to expect no sign of damage to a terminal switching close to double it's rated current? Is it just because it was an old MK and nobody had braved the 'orrible shower for more than 10 minutes at a time and the flat's freezing cold?

On another note, should I try and report this landlord (who to?) should I start refusing her work? (at least i'm leaving it better than before, and bringing things like this to her attention . . .)

BAS, i await your comments!









*ie total slumlord

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I don't know what laws will have been broken in Scotland.

Does the local government have any licencing authority over properties which are let out?

Is the tenant concerned? Could they get you the details of the landlord's liability insurers so that you could submit a report to them?

 

[hairyben]

On another note, should I try and report this landlord (who to?) should I start refusing her work? (at least i'm leaving it better than before, and bringing things like this to her attention . . .)

How much do you need the work?

Speaking for meself, although I'm ticking over, those odd brainache clients I would have turned down not so long ago I'm biting me tongue and getting on with it... but there's a limit and guess what, YOU WERE THE LAST PERSON TO HAVE WORKED ON A DANGEROUS INSTALLATION. Think about that... Now I dunno if you're scheme member, the nic have a view on things, which may involve isolating/disconnecting and one their stupid little condemnation stickers, but of course in the real world things aren't that simple.

I'd say, at the very least, you should be issuing MWC's with an eye on covering your own back, ie "replaced broken fitting- advise improvement work on circuit as matter of urgency"

The landlord can throw it in the bin, so long as you've got your carbon for if the worst should happen and the landlord forgets the nice electrician who sorted her job cheaply and had [oscar nominee distress] "no idea" that the installation was poor but remembers who worked on it last...

 

[nozspark]

If I were in your situation I would only work on what you have been asked to (limit your liability) and write exactly what you have done on the MWC and also note any problems that you have seen.

I would also give them a "Dangerous Electrical Notification" with every problem that I saw and that would include other circuits.. The great thing about those certs is that the resopnsible person has to sign for them!

 

[Click-Sure]

Its a no no no for me, its the A5 elecsa dangerous electrical installation notification sheets for me.

By rights, I'm not sure that any electrician should be working on any domestic installation without seeing the EIC's/PIR's for the property (it happens, but very very rarely) or insisting on a PIR before starting work.

But, this comes back to the 'quoting a job and getting it' thread that is kicking around, you have to take things in balance.

 

[RF Lighting]

I have to say, I would not have touched the shower circuit.

Yes you have improved it, and I fully understand why you did this, but you are now responsible for the safety of that circuit.

If the bonding is not up to scratch, and no doubt the supplementary bonding will be missing, not to mention the lack of RCD, and the fact you can't determine the installation method of the cable.

There is no way you know for sure this is now safe, and I suspect it is still far from it.

I know it's a difficult desicion what to do for the best, but you have to keep your ass covered, especially with this being a rented property.

You should have either left it alone altogether, left the circuit isolated, or completely overhauled the circuit to ensure it is safe and compliant.

Not having a go by the way, just a few pointers for you.

 

[securespark]

In the world of maintenance (not installation), don't the ECA have some kind of rule like as long as you don't make it any more dangerous than you found it, you are OK to work on it?

 

[sjwkmje]

I live in a rented house in Yorkshire at the moment. The shower packed up and the landlord came and fitted the new one him self. Now it was not working for two weeks, and not having a working bath I hammered the landlord to get it fixed. He came round gave me some BS about how electrical circuits work and what he needed to do, so I let him talk for about 30 mins about how the cable needed replacing, the isolator, the CU, and the rest. I then introduced my self, and said I am a qualfifed electrician and you cannot fit it your self under part p. As well as complying with 17th edition.

So he still fitted a new shower it and its a right mess, no sleeving on the CPCs, 10mm cable to a 40A mcb no RCD, cable just thrown accross the basement not fixed, I am still waiting for the MWC and PIR. I cannot remember the wattage but I now the cable is just on limits. Just shows these people don't care. As far as I am concerned its a danagerous installation as there is no RCD. No cross bonding. I will be kicking up a fuss with the landlord and quoting the red book next time I see him. As its a new shower it should comply with 17th edd.

Adam

 

[ban-all-sheds]

1) Find somewhere else to live.

2) Report him in writing to the council.

2a) If they take no action, write to the Borough Solicitor asking him why those public officials did nothing when evidence of a crime was presented to them.

3) Make a statement to the police.

3a) If they do nothing, write to the Chief Constable asking him why his officers did nothing when evidence of a crime (and it's a real one, remember, punishable by up to 6 months in chokey) was given to them.

4) Find out who his insurers are and send them a report.

 

[dingbat]

... I will be kicking up a fuss with the landlord and quoting the red book next time I see him...

Yes?

Well, just make sure you read the thing first, get your terminology correct and brush up on your understanding of the legal requirements.

 

[sjwkmje]

1) Find somewhere else to live.

2) Report him in writing to the council.

2a) If they take no action, write to the Borough Solicitor asking him why those public officials did nothing when evidence of a crime was presented to them.

3) Make a statement to the police.

3a) If they do nothing, write to the Chief Constable asking him why his officers did nothing when evidence of a crime (and it's a real one, remember, punishable by up to 6 months in chokey) was given to them.

4) Find out who his insurers are and send them a report.

We are moving out in 7 months. Its a student house. I was told by the letting agent that the house is not been rented next year as it requires considerable work. I am guessing they know it does not have a current PIR and the state of the wiring.

... I will be kicking up a fuss with the landlord and quoting the red book next time I see him...

Yes?

Well, just make sure you read the thing first, get your terminology correct and brush up on your understanding of the legal requirements.

I am brushing up on part p, I try and stay away from domestic work! To be honest I think I was more annoyed how some people can try and BS you before they actually know you and your background.

Adam

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Its a student house.

If the landlord and/or property is on a list approved by the college, make a report to them too...

 

[skenk]

Thanks all for your comments, very useful and interesting.

BAS - yes private landlords must be registered, I may try and give them an anonymous tip

Ben - Hmm yeah good point about being the last to work on a dangerous install. I did issue a MWC noting that the circuit was unsafe. Do I need the work? Not especially but I do aim to please, my business is all about customer service. I am not a scheme member for various reasons.

Noz - I have looked into Dangerous Electrical Notification sheets they look very useful, am working on my own version. thanks

Click - | don't think I would get any domestic maintenance work/small jobs if i insisted on a PIR before starting work. Is this really how it works, a PIR is req'd before work can be done???

RF - thanks for the comments, will be thinking more about taking on jobs like this in the future

secure - That makes sense. To be honest I think i would do the job if it came around again although the Dangerous Electrical Notifications are going to come in very useful!

Thanks again

 

[securespark]

We have our own version of the DEN sheets.

I rarely visit a property without filling one in.

Here is a resume of a form I filled out when visiting a property recently.

No CPC to lighting circuits. No earth electrode or RCD on TT supply. Earth terminal of property connected to gas installation pipe. No PEB to water pipe. Rubber and lead-sheathed cables present.

Seperate shower supply connected to RCD with no overload or short circuit protection and using undersized cable.