Reasonable material costs to charge

[vv2806]

Who will pay for the time you take to sort out all of the part numbers etc, will you toil for free at home one evening??

Perhaps in this case it's worth spending some of the OP's time for free. First, he is just starting working for himself, after several lists of materials he would have most of the information he needs. If he does it on a computer, the next lists would be just copy/paste jobs. It is not necessary to do extensive research and to buy from different places. If a customer wants to buy the materials themselves, a list of the Screwfix materials would be sufficient.

Second - if the customer has other properties as mentioned above and is impressed with OP's prices and quality of work, it is very likely the OP will do other jobs for the same customer and also be recomended to other people.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

BAS, that is exactly what I said - if I can buy the materials cheaper, I would do it myself.

That's not what I said.

You have to be able to buy the materials for less than they buy them for, not for less than they are selling to you, otherwise they'll just transfer their markup to their labour costs (or they should, if they have any sense), and you'll end up paying a total of higher material buy price + their usual markup.

If you're comparing competitive quotes all that matters is the figure in the bottom right hand corner - how it's made up is irrelevant.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Here is a customer point of view for you. If I pay somebody to do whatever work for me, I would like to know the price for the materials and where he is going to buy them from. If I can buy them cheaper, I would rather do it myself.

The price that the spark/plumber or whatever trade will tell you is his/her selling price. Some people mistakenly think they have a right to know how much the tradesperson pay for the materials. Adsa, Sainsbury's, Ford and Vauxhall only tell you their selling price, not what they pay wholesale from their suppliers. Why does anyone think that sparks should be any different?

Ive had some people tell me that they can get the materials cheaper after scouring the tinternet to get a better price, screwfix being a common comparsion. My response is that they are not my preferred supplier and that buying from there involves a 20 mile round trip and takes about an hour if the counter is not too busy, whereas i have 3 suppliers within 2 miles of my house. If they are willing to pay up front (no account facilities at screwfix) for the cost of those materials plus my hour labour and travel costs, fine, screwfix it is
When put like this, you can probably guess that i dont really travel more than 2 miles for stuff very often

Most of the tradesmen don't mind discussing this. But there were some guys who gave me a quotation of £300 for the materials to change some gutters. All the materials needed for the job, including the screws, cost less than £100 at B&Q. And I told them in advance that I want it done in the cheapest possible way. Guess if they got the job.

In your case, I would quote the Screwfix price (not sure about the 20%) to the customer and would give him the option to buy the materials himself if he wishes.

but make it clear to the customer before anything is bought that if there are any damages defects in the warranty period, then only the stuff you have supplied is covered, anything that they purchased is their problem to sort if it fails

Also, given a preference, i would rather one person be responsible for the buying, i dont particularly like the customer getting some stuff and me providing the rest, it can result in haggling (decorative fittin perhaps an exception, im not too interested in getting involved in a customers style choices)

To the OP, as others have said, after a while you'll get your own idea of how much things actually cost. IMO you would be well advised to get used to approximating prices unless you intend to spend hours counting grommets screws and plugs etc and give your self a headache.

Why not put a tenner on your day rate to cover the cost of minor incidentals. Maybe another tenner chucked on the top of the job to cover time sat at a computer to carry out notifications if necessary

 

[Gees]

Here is a customer point of view for you. If I pay somebody to do whatever work for me, I would like to know the price for the materials and where he is going to buy them from. If I can buy them cheaper, I would rather do it myself.

Most of the tradesmen don't mind discussing this. But there were some guys who gave me a quotation of £300 for the materials to change some gutters. All the materials needed for the job, including the screws, cost less than £100 at B&Q. And I told them in advance that I want it done in the cheapest possible way. Guess if they got the job.

So, you're an electrician, and you've worked out that you need to make £200 from a job so that you can cover all your costs and have enough left over to pay the bills, feed your children etc.

You make some of that £200 from charging for your labour, and some from materials markup.

If your customer takes away the latter, what are you going to do?

Let's see.

Mr Sparky needs to make £200.

The retail price for the materials is £100. He gets a 25% discount at the wholesalers.

You do not.

PRICING MODEL A - WITH MARKUP.

Materials £75
Markup on materials £40 (thus making them appear more expensive than you can get them for)
Labour £160
Total £275

Your spend on materials £0

Overall price to you £275.


PRICING MODEL B - WITHOUT MARKUP.

Materials £0
Markup on materials £0
Labour £200
Total £200

Your spend on materials £100

Overall price to you £300.

Since Mr Sparky won't be able to get his mortgage company, the supermarket etc etc to take less money if he makes less, then if you take away his profit from materials then he will add that back in to his labour costs - the alternative is homelessness and hunger, and he isn't going to opt for that.

Unless you can buy materials for less than he can your model is always going to end up costing you more money.

Some folk just look at the Rolls on the driveway and adjust costs accordingly

 

[Taylortwocities]

My old mate used to do this:

If the car had a personalised numberplate, take the number and add noughts until you get to a reasonable number, and that's the quote.

Add 20% to this figure if there is a Tradesmen's Entrance.

 

[studips]

Here is a customer point of view for you. If I pay somebody to do whatever work for me, I would like to know the price for the materials and where he is going to buy them from. If I can buy them cheaper, I would rather do it myself.

Most of the tradesmen don't mind discussing this.

Unless you can buy materials for less than he can your model is always going to end up costing you more money.

if a customer wants to supply materials then they must be of suitable quality and on site when i need them - most customers are not competant to arrange for the right materials, quantities etc to be on site at the right time, also cheap materials are usually extra agg and take more time to use, also if things get broken or more is required then the customer pays.

If the customer wants a fixed price for my labour then it is loaded to cover unforseen circumstances - like the concrete i was going through not being 2" thick as advised, but being 6" thick and very strong to boot, as happened the other day.

personally i do not discuss material prices with customers - i discuss an overall materials price and the brands - spec they will be getting, but i do not give my customers a shopping list either.

made those mistakes 20 years ago, so i can say 'been there, done it and learnt that it is not the way to work.'

unless you're desperate, and i'm not

 

[1john]

I would gladly agree a fixed labour price and allow the customer to supply all materials, they however have to agree to pay me an hourly rate, say £20/£30 for waiting time when i have to down tools as they havent got everything i need and they have to go out and get it.

this type of person may seldom get a quote from me anyway.

 

[subbysparks]

hmmm not sure i like the look of this job.

i popped to the flat to have a scout at what he wants doing. its a flat refurb total rewire with new meter and board going up (edf dew monday to do the meter) and a loft conversion with separate meter and board for 2nd flat.

but basically wants me to just 2nd fix and test. when i had a nosey around at the first fix, the guy he has doing the first fix has told him that he is competent to do all of it but my mate doesn't trust him to do it so has asked me to do the 2nd fix and testing.
my first thoughts were if he is competent why are there no grommets? scuff marks all over the cables nothing has been dressed nicely or neatly massive lack of clipping not sure what he has been using to cut the cables as he's pulled them in as it looks like he's chewed it off the drum.

i think what i'm going to do is pop over again have a proper look around make sure there is a decent earth, see if he has actually pulled in the correct cable sizes and wired it correctly where possible check cable runs are in correct zones. and if satisfied with that insulation resistance test all his cables before commencing any work.
what worries me tho is that he has a tight deadline to get this completed! although thats not my issue but will be if i take the job on and have to correct anything.
any other advice? im guessing most responses are going to be wash my hands of it

 

[Taylortwocities]

Your gut instinct is not to take this on, isn't it? You should listen to your guts, if you have reservations now, it is not going to get better.

Don't forget that you will take on the responsibility for whatever the other guy has done, and you won't know what that is until the smelly stuff hits the fan. You will not be able to determine that from insulation tests.

It will be your signature on the paper. I'd walk away.

 

[ericmark]

I had a big problem in one place I worked as we sold wholesale and did work.

It was considered any work done the materials used were charged at retail how ever you always got the customer who complained about retail cost and we would then draw up two bills one for supply of parts and one for labour marked labour only customer supplied parts.

All well and good until some thing failed then customer would return to get work done under guarantee. It would be then explained that although the item would be changed under guarantee the customer would have to pay for labour to change it as it was a customer supplied part.

This caused no end of arguments and it had to be pointed out the difference between trade and retail was what paid for us to swap a part should it go wrong.

As to cable then if the customer buy it and you fit it they buy it by the role. If you use 135 meters they pay for at least 150 meters may be 200 meters and this includes triple and earth plus 6mm cable so it can easy work out more expensive for them. However they are left with all part roles not you.

OK it may seem straight forward but try telling a customer that he owes you £20 for a call out because it was nothing to do with the work you did why the lamp failed but it was due to a bulb that he bought blowing.

It says:-
314.1 Every installation shall be divided into circuits, as necessary, to:
(iv) reduce the possibility of unwanted tripping of RCDs due to excessive protective conductor currents produced by equipment in normal operation

OK the customer has 8 PC's plugged in to one ring main which is tripping out the RCD. Who's fault? Should you have used more RCBO's or should he have told you he has 8 old PC's all near the edge as far as earth leakage goes? You don't want a bad name so you have to come to some arrangement likely you lose money on the job. But it is the profit you make with mark-up that pays for when things go wrong. It is after all you who has not complied with the regulations! It does not have a proviso saying as long as the customer does not have too many PC's!

 

[ericmark]

hmmm not sure i like the look of this job.

i popped to the flat to have a scout at what he wants doing. its a flat refurb total rewire with new meter and board going up (edf dew monday to do the meter) and a loft conversion with separate meter and board for 2nd flat.

but basically wants me to just 2nd fix and test. when i had a nosey around at the first fix, the guy he has doing the first fix has told him that he is competent to do all of it but my mate doesn't trust him to do it so has asked me to do the 2nd fix and testing.
my first thoughts were if he is competent why are there no grommets? scuff marks all over the cables nothing has been dressed nicely or neatly massive lack of clipping not sure what he has been using to cut the cables as he's pulled them in as it looks like he's chewed it off the drum.

i think what i'm going to do is pop over again have a proper look around make sure there is a decent earth, see if he has actually pulled in the correct cable sizes and wired it correctly where possible check cable runs are in correct zones. and if satisfied with that insulation resistance test all his cables before commencing any work.
what worries me tho is that he has a tight deadline to get this completed! although thats not my issue but will be if i take the job on and have to correct anything.
any other advice? im guessing most responses are going to be wash my hands of it

Not sure why this is not a new post? But it has been a question I have raised many times. Where a guy becomes ill or for any other reason can't complete a job what can be done. I was lucky when it happened to me it was a disabled job so no Part P charges and I registered the job with LABC and marked all my installation certificates as inspection and testing and put other guy's name down for design and installation and the LABC accepted the certificate with no signature against his work. It was written in the exceptions that the work was a take over job and that only visible parts were inspected.

If it was not a disabled job then paying the council £100+ for them to sign off the work seems a bit expensive but it is really the only way I can think of to protect yourself. I would ask you scheme provider what they think and I think I would ask in writing not over phone so if they do tell you to go ahead you can prove they told you it was OK to proceed as you can't afford to lose your self reg status.

 

[1john]

hmmm not sure i like the look of this job.

i popped to the flat to have a scout at what he wants doing. its a flat refurb total rewire with new meter and board going up (edf dew monday to do the meter) and a loft conversion with separate meter and board for 2nd flat.

but basically wants me to just 2nd fix and test. when i had a nosey around at the first fix, the guy he has doing the first fix has told him that he is competent to do all of it but my mate doesn't trust him to do it so has asked me to do the 2nd fix and testing.
my first thoughts were if he is competent why are there no grommets? scuff marks all over the cables nothing has been dressed nicely or neatly massive lack of clipping not sure what he has been using to cut the cables as he's pulled them in as it looks like he's chewed it off the drum.

i think what i'm going to do is pop over again have a proper look around make sure there is a decent earth, see if he has actually pulled in the correct cable sizes and wired it correctly where possible check cable runs are in correct zones. and if satisfied with that insulation resistance test all his cables before commencing any work.
what worries me tho is that he has a tight deadline to get this completed! although thats not my issue but will be if i take the job on and have to correct anything.
any other advice? im guessing most responses are going to be wash my hands of it

Do the right thing, follow your gut, it will save your life one day! Point out every single defect to your mate and to his 'spark' and say once you can inspect that every aspect of this is rectified, you would be willing to work on it. Let me assure you that sparky #! there hasnt got the test equipment or knowledge to test it and not got any means at all for signing it off. You have been told a few fibs because they want you to sign it off, or at least certify it. Dont lett them extract the urine from you, it is not on.

If cables are damaged where you can see them, what kind of state will they be in where you cant see them? Are you are willing to sign a document to say you installed this stuff yourself?

 

[Taylortwocities]

Some years ago, before I knew better, I got a call out of the blue from a Polish builder.

He said that he had a job and the wiring was done but that the electrician that did it had become very ill and could not complete the job and could not be contacted .

I was scratching around for work at that time and had a look at it. It didn't look so bad except that none of the cables were marked, just hanging out of the ceiling and switch boxes etc. And a big mass of cables where the new fuseboard was to go.

It was a total nightmare and cost me the replacement of my multi-function tester. (My fault for doing continuity on an energised circuit. Yes, I know...).

It took forever, I'm sure that someone whose name ends in 'ski' had actually done it. The customer turned out to be a big nobby barrister and I sweated about taking responsibility for the whole enchilada and then him taking me to the cleaners because his parrot had been electrocuted.

It got worse because the builder had agreed with the customer that he could supply his own sockets etc. Customer worked very close to Ryness. One day, after the painting had all been done, a big bag arrived full of lovely flat plate sockets etc. The builders had only used 25mm deep boxes and the plaster was not over-generous. The boxes were too shallow to get the sockets in and the polish guys had to chop them out and replace with 35mm boxes. Followed by much filling, sanding and re-painting.

Luckily I had agreed to take the job on as a day rate otherwise I would have lost my shirt.

If you do take on this job I suggest you do the same.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

My old mate used to do this:

If the car had a personalised numberplate, take the number and add noughts until you get to a reasonable number, and that's the quote.

What if the number plate was PUS 5Y?