Reasons to Remain.

[JohnD]

I'm sure it is generally recognised that, for financial services in particular (which in the UK is bigger than our entire manufacturing industry), EU countries will only trade in a country that obeys EU regulations.

Countries outside the EU do not have a hand in deciding what those regulations should be, and they are not framed for the benefit of outsiders.

China is approaching a banking meltdown which is going to be much worse than the recent Western one, so I wouldn't see that as a place to look for replacement business.

 

[Himaginn]

Quite so, John.

Additionally this quote from BBC makes interesting reading

Ironically, the key to what the UK would be like after leaving the EU is in the hands of the very organisation we would have just voted to leave.
The reaction of the EU itself would make all the difference between an amicable divorce and a crime of passion.
Discerning how 27 other governments will behave is never easy at the best of times.
Predicting their reaction to a hypothetical vote in four months' time might seem as pointless as asking Schrodinger about the health of his cat.
But trends will become clearer as the weeks pass.
There is already a grave worry on the Continent that the British disease could be catching. The word they use is "contagion".
If we vote to leave, there are those in France and Germany who won't want to make it a comfortable experience.
If it looks too easy, others may be encouraged to follow.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35648948

This concern is of importance to our whole and complete relationship with EU, not just Trade, Migration, Regulation, Justice, etc.

 

[tony1851]

Thus we should have no cause to complain China is dumping cheap steel on us that would just be free trade.

Slightly off topic: I agree with your contention that goods should be produced at lowest cost wherever that is, and with free trade etc.
However, you raised the issue of the UK steel industry. Adam Smith believed in, among other things, free trade, but not if it compromised
national security.
A viable steel industry, energy security, a ship-building and vehicle-building capacity are of strategic importance, and should not be
sacrificed for cheaper imports.
TBH, I wouldn't know what the answer is regarding steel, but if it disappears permanently from the UK, I doubt that would be a good thing.

 

[JohnD]

Thus we should have no cause to complain China is dumping cheap steel on us that would just be free trade.

No I didn't

 

[Himaginn]

Equally, it freely signed a Free Trade agreement with China recently, that gives Chine the right to export to Switzerland, but agrees that Swiss watches will forever be charged duty in China.

Hardly a free trade arrangement then , more an example of how free trade is at best an illusion and at worst total *******s . Free trade should essentially be country A gives unhindered access to it's markets to country B and vice versa. Thus we should have no cause to complain China is dumping cheap steel on us that would just be free trade.

It was Lola's comment in response to yours and Tony messed up the quotes.

 

[Himaginn]

I supect it should look like this:

Thus we should have no cause to complain China is dumping cheap steel on us that would just be free trade.

Slightly off topic: I agree with your contention that goods should be produced at lowest cost wherever that is, and with free trade etc.
However, you raised the issue of the UK steel industry. Adam Smith believed in, among other things, free trade, but not if it compromised
national security.
A viable steel industry, energy security, a ship-building and vehicle-building capacity are of strategic importance, and should not be
sacrificed for cheaper imports.
TBH, I wouldn't know what the answer is regarding steel, but if it disappears permanently from the UK, I doubt that would be a good thing.

 

[tony1851]

Just to put the record straight for everybody;

I wasn't criticising anyone's comments about anything - I was merely musing on the prospects for our steel industry.

Just pressed the wrong keys, I shall now shut up and crawl back under my stone

 

[Himaginn]

Just to put the record straight for everybody;

I wasn't criticising anyone's comments about anything - I was merely musing on the prospects for our steel industry.

Just pressed the wrong keys, I shall now shut up and crawl back under my stone

Just go back and edit to read as it should.
And no-one assumed you were criticising anyone.
You can make up quotes by using {quote="TomThumb"}. I've used the parantheses to stop the system using the quote function. Just replace the parantheses with square brackets.

 

[blightymam]

Just pressed the wrong keys, I shall now shut up and crawl back under my stone

Don't be sad! It's all ok - it's only a silly forum after all!

 

[ladylola]

Equally, it freely signed a Free Trade agreement with China recently, that gives Chine the right to export to Switzerland, but agrees that Swiss watches will forever be charged duty in China.

Hardly a free trade arrangement then , more an example of how free trade is at best an illusion and at worst total *******s . Free trade should essentially be country A gives unhindered access to it's markets to country B and vice versa. Thus we should have no cause to complain China is dumping cheap steel on us that would just be free trade.

I'm not sure you got the gist of John's example, unless you were further elucidating his point.
He was showing the kind of "Trade Agreement" that Switzerland and China have, which you pointed out was not an equitable agreement. It was very much in China's favour.
.

More a comment about the whole free trade nonsense.
Free trade is one of those meaningless phrases that are banded about as if it actually exists .invariably one side will gain a distinct advantage and the other side will start with tariffs , quotas or what ever and the myth of free trade evaporates . Using the term does neither side in this argument any favours in my opinion .personally I don't think this trading issue is the most important aspect for the referendum.

 

[Himaginn]

I'm not sure you got the gist of John's example, unless you were further elucidating his point.
He was showing the kind of "Trade Agreement" that Switzerland and China have, which you pointed out was not an equitable agreement. It was very much in China's favour.
.

More a comment about the whole free trade nonsense.
Free trade is one of those meaningless phrases that are banded about as if it actually exists .invariably one side will gain a distinct advantage and the other side will start with tariffs , quotas or what ever and the myth of free trade evaporates . Using the term does neither side in this argument any favours in my opinion .personally I don't think this trading issue is the most important aspect for the referendum.

Free Trade Agreement means that no import tariffs are applied by either side. It's our current arrangement with EU, except it goes further.
It is not a Free Trade Agreement when one side has an advantage. That is a 'Trade Agreement'
Free Trade = international trade left to its natural course without tariffs, quotas, or other restrictions.

Treaty (such as FTAA or NAFTA) between two or more countries to establish a free trade area where commerce in goods and services can be conducted across their common borders, without tariffs or hindrances but (in contrast to a common market) capital or labor may not move freely. Member countries usually impose a uniformtariff (calledcommon external tariff) on trade with non-member countries.

Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/free-trade-agreement.html#ixzz41H2Gco4q

We actually have a common market, which then includes capital and labour.

The highlighted bit also shows why the 'four freedoms' are fundamental to the EU Treaty: goods, services, capital and labour.

 

[Himaginn]

Interesting! We were discussing somewhere about the possibility of Wales going independent if we exited EU:

UKIP's Wales leader has said the UK leaving the European Union would mean "real devolution" for Wales.
Mr Gill told the conference: "We can bring back the 75% of laws made by faceless bureaucrats in Brussels, from farming, fishing and employment, energy, business and trade - a whole host of laws that would end up right where they belong, here in Wales, written for the people of Wales, by the people of Wales and for the people of Wales to democratically vote on.
"Now that's what I call real devolution.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-35668000

 

[PBC_1966]

Free Trade = international trade left to its natural course without tariffs, quotas, or other restrictions.

Then that's not what the EU has created, since it imposes many restrictions.

 

[PBC_1966]

If we vote to leave, there are those in France and Germany who won't want to make it a comfortable experience. If it looks too easy, others may be encouraged to follow.

And that just highlights exactly why the U.K. should get out of this "club" while it still can, even if - as some assert - it does mean a little economic belt-tightening for a few years until things settle down.

 

[Himaginn]

Free Trade = international trade left to its natural course without tariffs, quotas, or other restrictions.

Then that's not what the EU has created, since it imposes many restrictions.

It has created free trade within the EU. The only restrictions are banned or illegal goods or services.
Are you being intentionally obtuse?