Pretty much sums it up.
Replacing light - House that jack built!
- Thread starter AnnaA1982
- Start date
Pretty much sums it up.
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They would understand it now if they stopped wishing it hadn't happened.
Did they? What 'standard'. AFAIAA, with 'old colours' there was no more 'official guidance' (let alone anything 'mandated') as to which core of 3C+E one should use as neutral (if one wanted LLN) than there is now in relation to 'new colours', was there? Or am I wrong?
Of course, with 'old colours' I suspect that the great majority of people probably adopted the same convention. As I've said before, red and yellow are pretty universally (globally) recognised as 'danger/ warning/ caution' colours, so the obvious ones for two L cores, leaving the blue as neutral. However, with harmonised colours, the concept of "universally recognised 'danger/ warning/ caution' colours" has gone totally out of the window - with the three colours we have for L1, L2 and L3 being just about the most 'non-danger' colours one could imagine!
Lots of clever and intelligent people were undoubtedly involved in choosing the harmonised colours, but I'm just a bit surprised by what they ended up deciding.
Kind Regards, John
As you point out, why was blue used as the neutral on a old 3 core cable?
Was it because the blue is darker than yellow, so looking more like black?
Was it because we knew blue was neutral in Europe, and that we were about to or already using blue in our flexes?
Was it because blue was the 'third' phase, so did it seem less likely to be remembered as a phase colour?
Incidently, it was far more common to sleeve the yellow red than bother sleeving the blue black.
Was it because the blue is darker than yellow, so looking more like black?
Was it because we knew blue was neutral in Europe, and that we were about to or already using blue in our flexes?
Was it because blue was the 'third' phase, so did it seem less likely to be remembered as a phase colour?
Incidently, it was far more common to sleeve the yellow red than bother sleeving the blue black.
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Not only did I point that out, but I also gave my opinion as to the probably answer - red and yellow were such well-established 'universal danger/caution colours' that they were the obvious choices for two L's, leaving only the blue for neutral. Indeed, for the same reason, if red and yellow were two of them, then the other one would be the obvious for neutral, almost regardless of what colour it was.
Kind Regards, John
You got a good point about the harmonised colours not looking 'dangerous' enough. As you say, the red and yellow look like warning colours.
If you was to remove the cover from a trunking in a factory, and saw all these brown, black and grey singles - you could be forgiven for thinking they may just be coax and cat5e cables.
If you was to remove the cover from a trunking in a factory, and saw all these brown, black and grey singles - you could be forgiven for thinking they may just be coax and cat5e cables.
Exactly. Red and Yellow for 'danger/warning' works, in most contexts, nearly all over the world (except, now, for electrical wiring in Europe
).Yes, possibly - and, as I said, if you'd asked me to tell you what three colours I thought least indicated 'danger/warning', I might well have come up with black, grey and brown!!
As I've said, these colour choices weren't arbitrary. There were the result of a lot of thought and discussion by a lot of clever people - but that doesn't alter the fact that I'm surprised by what, in their wisdom, they came up with!
Kind Regards, John
Presumably all these colours were decided by some continental country many years ago?
As you say, I don't think I have ever seen a blue cable with black sleeveing, because ppl knew if the cable required a netural blue would be used.
I have never seen a yellow used for neutral.
Once you knew whether the cable required a neutral you had a good idea of the likely use of the conductor colours.
Now in addition you have to work out what convention has been used.
I have never seen a yellow used for neutral.
Once you knew whether the cable required a neutral you had a good idea of the likely use of the conductor colours.
Now in addition you have to work out what convention has been used.
I'm not sure that I've ever seen it, either - but the fact that people may have 'known' what was going on does not necessarily make it compliant. I don't think it would be compliant to have an 'old colours' cable in which both L(s) and N(s) correctly identified (by over-sleeving if necessary) in terms of those 'old colours'.
Nor me - and, as I've said, it would be very odd. Yellow (like red) is so 'obviously' a 'warning/caution' colour that, if one wants LLN, it would be crazy not to use yellow and red for the Ls.
If cables are correctly identified (with over-sleeving if necessary) in a reg-compliant fashion, there is nothing to 'work out'.
Kind Regards, John
Which brings me back to my original point.
Everyone used used blue on an old 3 core+e as N.
Blue was replaced for grey following harmonisation.
So why would anyone want to use anything else?
Everyone used used blue on an old 3 core+e as N.
Blue was replaced for grey following harmonisation.
So why would anyone want to use anything else?
It's not a question of want to; It doesn't matter.
The neutral will be the one with the blue sleeve.
Conversely, why do you want to ues the black for live when it used to be the neutral colour?
As I've said, I personally wouldn't.
However, as I've also said, before harmonisation, I suspect that the main reason people used blue for neutral (when they wanted LLN) was that the other two available colours were so 'obviously' (in everyday terms) 'warning colours' that they were the obvious candidates for the two Ls, leaving only blue for neutral.
Post-harmonisation, none of the three available colours are obvious 'warning' colours, so it doesn't really matter which are used for Ls (hence which is left for N).
Kind Regards, John
Foe EFLI.
Because the old non-harmonised colours have no bearing on the harmonised colours. No need, reason or point to try to match them.
But since the new grey is a direct replacement for the old blue, it makes perfect sense to use the grey.
Using a new black as N is as illogical as using an old yellow as N.
Because the old non-harmonised colours have no bearing on the harmonised colours. No need, reason or point to try to match them.
But since the new grey is a direct replacement for the old blue, it makes perfect sense to use the grey.
Using a new black as N is as illogical as using an old yellow as N.
As I've said, probably not 'as illogical' to those who feel that yellow is associated with 'warning' whereas black feels very 'innocuous'.
Kind Regards, John
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