Rewire or not to rewire?

[mikhailfaradayski]

Hi RF,

If you could show me where it says i'm doing it wrong, i'll consider revising how things are done.

Also, when you consider that when some jobs are to be notified, that means logging into my scheme providers web-site. I certainly can't do that whilst on-site. So that has to be completed at a later date. The guidance for time for me to notify is 21 days, so even the scheme providers accept that the paperwork won't get done immeadiately. IN turn, they will only notify the relevant council on the saturday following my notice to them.

As it happens, i tend to do them as soon as payment is cleared, but the 14 days thing gives me some breathing space. So far, i have had no problem with customers working this way. As qazwsk says, what is wrong with scribbling your results into a note pad/cornflake packet and doing them neatly later. MY handwriting is awful and I often make mistakes, so doing them later means the customer gets nice clean certs, no coffee rings, creases, grubby finger prints etc.

Regards the nic and their own rules, most of the time maybe it is just grumbling from some electricians, but i don't agree with the extra charges levied against their members should they wish to carry out a PIR. As I understand it, there is no requirement to be in a club to do these, the only requirements are PI insurance, competence and experience. Why do the NIC charge?

 

[qazwsx]

Hi RF,

If you could show me where it says i'm doing it wrong, i'll consider revising how things are done.

Also, when you consider that when some jobs are to be notified, that means logging into my scheme providers web-site. I certainly can't do that whilst on-site. So that has to be completed at a later date. The guidance for time for me to notify is 21 days, so even the scheme providers accept that the paperwork won't get done immeadiately. IN turn, they will only notify the relevant council on the saturday following my notice to them.

As it happens, i tend to do them as soon as payment is cleared, but the 14 days thing gives me some breathing space. So far, i have had no problem with customers working this way. As qazwsk says, what is wrong with scribbling your results into a note pad/cornflake packet and doing them neatly later. MY handwriting is awful and I often make mistakes, so doing them later means the customer gets nice clean certs, no coffee rings, creases, grubby finger prints etc.

Regards the nic and their own rules, most of the time maybe it is just grumbling from some electricians, but i don't agree with the extra charges levied against their members should they wish to carry out a PIR. As I understand it, there is no requirement to be in a club to do these, the only requirements are PI insurance, competence and experience. Why do the NIC charge?

just been on Electrician Direct site... Read this! ' ....works on behalf of the consumer regarding Electrical Regulation / Building Regulation non-compliance issues and subsequent communications with Part P regulatory bodies / building control officers has provided an insight into their respective limitations, hence strongly advises domestic consumers to take advantage of the extra protection afforded under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act, 1974.

A Credit Card Gives You Extra Consumer Protection'

What seems to happen is customers are advised to pay with credit cards... This gives the customers great protection as well as 30 days to actually pay the credit card company and in this time all certificates and guarantees are provided in a NICEIC presentation folder.

By the way, any NICEIC member who provides a website link to NICEIC are breaking NICEIC Rules... NICEIC do not give permission for such links.

BS7671:2008 states jobs should be tested... Not that NICEIC logo test forms should be provided

 

[RF Lighting]

Hi RF,

If you could show me where it says i'm doing it wrong, i'll consider revising how things are done.

Regulation 631.1

Until you've issued the certificate(s) the job does not comply with BS7671, so you have not completed the work.

Invoicing customers for a job which isn't finished doesn't seem right to me.

Regards the nic and their own rules, most of the time maybe it is just grumbling from some electricians, but i don't agree with the extra charges levied against their members should they wish to carry out a PIR. As I understand it, there is no requirement to be in a club to do these, the only requirements are PI insurance, competence and experience. Why do the NIC charge?

What extra charges?

 

[RF Lighting]

It takes but a few minutes with a PDF editor to download the specimens from the NICEIC website and remove the "SPECIMEN" watermark...

I suppose you could do this if you have enough contempt for your customers that you don't care about the theft of the certificates, or about defrauding your customers.

 

[qazwsx]

Hi RF,

If you could show me where it says i'm doing it wrong, i'll consider revising how things are done.

Regulation 631.1

Until you've issued the certificate(s) the job does not comply with BS7671, so you have not completed the work.

Invoicing customers for a job which isn't finished doesn't seem right to me.

Regards the nic and their own rules, most of the time maybe it is just grumbling from some electricians, but i don't agree with the extra charges levied against their members should they wish to carry out a PIR. As I understand it, there is no requirement to be in a club to do these, the only requirements are PI insurance, competence and experience. Why do the NIC charge?

What extra charges?

Great!

I simply take some photocopies of certificates based on the model given in Appendix 6 and provide such to the customer... Is there anywhere which states the certificate must be legible? Until I've sat down at my desk only I can decipher my hand writing!

 

[RF Lighting]

Other than the breach of copyright you're perfectly entitled to do that.

I think like any other legal document it needs to be legible

 

[ban-all-sheds]

just been on Electrician Direct site...

I expect you have.

And we both know why.

What seems to happen is customers are advised to pay with credit cards... This gives the customers great protection as well as 30 days to actually pay the credit card company and in this time all certificates and guarantees are provided in a NICEIC presentation folder.

ED is asking people to pay for the work before he's finished it, and that's all there is to it.

By the way, any NICEIC member who provides a website link to NICEIC are breaking NICEIC Rules... NICEIC do not give permission for such links.

NICEIC also say you must not withhold certificates until payment has been made, but you don't care about that, do you.

BS7671:2008 states jobs should be tested... Not that NICEIC logo test forms should be provided

Indeed not, but if you are trading on the basis of NICEIC registration don't their rules say you have to use their forms?

Great!

I simply take some photocopies of certificates based on the model given in Appendix 6 and provide such to the customer...

No need to do that - you are free to download blank certificates from the IET website and use them.

They used to have a version which you could complete electronically and incorporate your company name, address and logo - not sure if they still do.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It takes but a few minutes with a PDF editor to download the specimens from the NICEIC website and remove the "SPECIMEN" watermark...

I suppose you could do this if you have enough contempt for your customers that you don't care about the theft of the certificates, or about defrauding your customers.

ED was talking about buying pirated NICEIC certificates from eBay - I was just pointing out that if he wanted to do that he could cut out the middleman.

 

[heathelect]

Having read the last few pages on this topic, I will you tell what I do to gain compliance.
Pay the NICEIC loads of money each year, NOT ANY MORE. too expensive.
I just let building control know when im starting the rewire, pay them the money, different areas, different prices, do the job, test and issue a copy to the customer (I do the test sheets later at home, from the rough ones I have done on site, nothing worse than issueing a grubby scribbled out copy to a customer) then also send a copy to building control along with proof of my competency. Building controls dont have a problem with this.
How am I deemed competent ?
1- 35yrs experience in the trade
2- All electrical installation qualifications held.(up to cert c [tech
3- Qualifications updated as neccessary.
4- 17 th edition wiring regs
5- Inspection & testing
6- Public liability insurance
7-JIB ECS approved electrician.
Ive spent the last 20 years self employed, and fortunately never had a major problem with any of my installations, and consider myself a competent person.Thats my story, thanks for reading
Dave

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Hi RF,

If you could show me where it says i'm doing it wrong, i'll consider revising how things are done.

Regulation 631.1

That reg only calls for the issue of certs and suggests what to use, not when they should be used. It doesn't say that you must do them onsite and give them to the customer there and then.

Until you've issued the certificate(s) the job does not comply with BS7671, so you have not completed the work.

agreed

Invoicing customers for a job which isn't finished doesn't seem right to me.

if it says so in the contract, and the customer has agreed, then its fine. How many jobs (larger) have you been involved in have had staged payments set out? maybe deposit or a percentage after first fix, a percentage at commissioning and so on. Does that render almost all jobs like this non-compliant?

Regards the nic and their own rules, most of the time maybe it is just grumbling from some electricians, but i don't agree with the extra charges levied against their members should they wish to carry out a PIR. As I understand it, there is no requirement to be in a club to do these, the only requirements are PI insurance, competence and experience. Why do the NIC charge?

What extra charges?

As I'm not in that club, i can only tell you what I've been told, but maybe a NIC spark reading this could set the record straight...

NIC members wishing to carry out PIRs have to be registered to do so. I doubt the NIC would bother to operate a separate register without exploiting the opportunity to charge their members to be on it.

 

[qazwsx]

Having read the last few pages on this topic, I will you tell what I do to gain compliance.
Pay the NICEIC loads of money each year, NOT ANY MORE. too expensive.
I just let building control know when im starting the rewire, pay them the money, different areas, different prices, do the job, test and issue a copy to the customer (I do the test sheets later at home, from the rough ones I have done on site, nothing worse than issueing a grubby scribbled out copy to a customer) then also send a copy to building control along with proof of my competency. Building controls dont have a problem with this.
How am I deemed competent ?
1- 35yrs experience in the trade
2- All electrical installation qualifications held.(up to cert c [tech
3- Qualifications updated as neccessary.
4- 17 th edition wiring regs
5- Inspection & testing
6- Public liability insurance
7-JIB ECS approved electrician.
Ive spent the last 20 years self employed, and fortunately never had a major problem with any of my installations, and consider myself a competent person.Thats my story, thanks for reading
Dave

Dave... I just like to say that I'd rather pay buiding control a couple of hundred a time than continue paying NIC much less. Why? I feel like nic do a lot of talking and make a lot of noise, yet none of its heard by Jo Public. And when push comes to shove they couldn't give a hoot as long as the inner circle of their club is okay... I think the last straw for me was the email asking what they should do regarding certs being sold with the NIC logo. As a member I find it most difficult to understand why I should be charged for the priviledge and yet...

Quote: 'Dear Kelly

Would you please confirm you have sent an email in response to an email I have sent to the NICEIC stating NICEIC logos (at the very least) are being used on Electrical Installation Certificates and sold on Eba. Your email simply asked what I would like NICEIC to do with the information sent through - is this correct?', unquote.


I've got a few jobs to complete, paperwork to put through and then... Adios

 

[1john]

Is this ED under a new guise?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Yes.

 

[dingbat]

NIC members wishing to carry out PIRs have to be registered to do so.

Not true. The NICEIC place no such restrictions on the scope of your work other than to strictly regulate the use of their corporate identity (logo).

It's very straightforward. You join the NICEIC as an Approved Contractor and include PIRs as part of your annual assessment and you can use the logo on your reports.

You join as a Domestic Installer and you are only assessed on domestic installation work, because this is all that is required by part P, so you may use the logo on installation certificates.

The DI registration is purely for the purposes of self-certifying under Building Regulations. Inspection work, apart from requiring a much greater understanding than most sparks will ever possess, is simply not governed by Part P.

But the NICEIC don't deny you the right to carry out PIRs, they just deny you the use of their logo for an activity they have not assessed you on.

And - in answer to another query raised - there is no requirement for you to use NICEIC forms in any case.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Hi Dingbat,

You may be correct, but reading the following links, I'm not 100% certain.

http://www.niceic.com/contractor/schemes/periodic-inspection

http://www.niceic.com/Uploads/File2517.pdf

It appears from this that the fees for someone already registered as domestic installer to extend the scope of their work to include PIR and PAT is £290+the dreaded.

Although it does appear as though you can get the extension to scope automatically and free - All you have to do is take a 4 day course and give them £750+the dreaded

Not sure how this applies to an Approved Contractor.