Should the regs become retrospective . . .

[Steve]

. . . after a certain amount of time?

Another topic prompted me to ask this.

How many rewireable fuseboxes are still in use in this country? How many houses have no RCD protection whatsoever? How many houses have never had a PIR? How many people say "if it aint broke dont fix it"

Some homes still have installations to the 14th? or 15th edition (when the above was acceptable) and have never been inspected since day one.

What about making the regs retrospective after 10 years of being introduced. So for example, all homes would have to be upgraded to 17th edition by 2018 (if the 18th isn't out by then).

Its all very well introducing these new regs, but face facts, most properties in the UK wont be compliant to the 17th until perhaps the 18th or 19th editions (when clearly even newer regs would be in force)

It could be made a condition of home insurance that the property has a PIR every 5 or 10 years, during which electricians would have to recommend upgrades where nessecary. It could be done.

Any thoughts?

edit: wording corrected

 

[plugwash]

Note: BS7671 is not and never has been statutory.

 

[flameport]

How many rewireable fuseboxes are still in use in this country? How many houses have no RCD protection whatsoever?

Probably several million. The 'isn't broke' thinking is prevalent - after all, most people will have no idea that electrical installations even need inspectiing. Even those that do probably won't bother, as most of an installation is hidden away out of sight.
Sadly, the only time most people think about rewiring or any electrical work is when something stops working.

What about making the regs retrospective after 10 years of being introduced. So for example, all homes would have to be upgraded to 17th edition by 2018 (if the 18th isn't out by then).

The problem as always is enforcement. Completely impractical. Not forgetting that complying with the 17th edition or any edition of BS7671 is not a legal requirement.

It could be made a condition of home insurance that the property has a PIR every 5 or 10 years, during which electricians would have to recommend upgrades where nessecary. It could be done.

Could, but probably won't. Any insurer who insisted on this would lose customers (why would a property owner pay for a PIR to get insurance with company A, when company B has no such requirement?)
This could be overcome if most insurers introduced this as a requirement. However why would any insurer do this? Insurance is priced on risk, and the number of properties damaged from fixed wiring defects is tiny. There are many fires resulting from electrical sources, but most of these are from portable appliances.

This will be different in the commercial sector, as there will be insurance against persons being injured. Injuries will result in high value claims, so there is an incentive to reduce the risk by requiring PIRs etc. However in the domestic setting, insurance will normally only cover the buildings and contents - both of which are relatively cheap to replace.

 

[ericmark]

. . . after a certain amount of time?

Another topic prompted me to ask this.

How many rewireable fuseboxes are still in use in this country? How many houses have no RCD protection whatsoever? How many houses have never had a PIR? How many people say "if it aint broke dont fix it"

Too many rules now never mind adding more. As to time limit it is already in place 10 years between PIR's and any code 1 or 2 faults should be corrected within a year plus code 4 only refers back one edition or amendment

Some homes still have installations to the 14th? or 15th edition (when the above was acceptable) and have never been inspected since day one.

Already against regulations so what are you asking for?

What about making the regs retrospective after 10 years of being introduced. So for example, all homes would have to be upgraded to 17th edition by 2018 (if the 18th isn't out by then).

Already there why bring in any more regulations

Its all very well introducing these new regs, but face facts, most properties in the UK wont be compliant to the 17th until perhaps the 18th or 19th editions (when clearly even newer regs would be in force)

It could be made a condition of home insurance that the property has a PIR every 5 or 10 years, during which electricians would have to recommend upgrades where necessary. It could be done.

Any thoughts?

We have far too many rules and regulations already what is needed is to make people responsible for there own health and safety.
Before my accident we checked and the switch we removed was black so so nothing to do with safety as these are red or yellow. Wrong the Germans who built the machine had used wrong colour. Had it been 10 years ago we would not have relied on colour and that the regulations had been followed and would have checked more carefully. The more we try to protect the less people check themselves. Next they will be fitting hand rails up Snowdon and carving away at the mountain to give wheel chair access????????????????????????

 

[NoPoke]

oh joy, every single socket would have to be moved upwards about a foot.
every room would need redecorating after the change
all the wire would have to be changed as it is the wrong colour.

I have a lot of sympathy with the opening poster : there ought to be a simple and not too expensive way of bringing older systems closer to current practice. For example retrofitting RCD protection needs to be a low cost job otherwise it will not be carried out. After all the purpose of the regulations is to have safety isn't it?

 

[CortinaV8]

Sounds like a brilliant idea, who is paying for it all.

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Sadly, the only time most people think about rewiring or any electrical work is when something stops working.

And just after they've decorated from top to bottom, laying tiled and laminate floors as they go - don't forget that.

 

[flameport]

Has anyone got any stats on injuries or fires caused by properly installed domestic FIXED wiring to whatever regs?

Some info here:
http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/fire/pdf/firestats2006.pdf
(Page 32 of the document)

From that document:
45679 total fires, 2994 were caused by 'electrical distribution'.
These resulted in 7 fatalities and 282 non fatal injuries.
Nothing to say wxactly what 'electrical distribution' covers, or if the electrical items were recent, ancient or anything else.

 

[Taylortwocities]

oh joy, every single socket would have to be moved upwards about a foot.

The height of sockets etc relates to Building Regulations Part M (Disabled Access). These heights apply only to new buildings and are not relavent in the context of this topic.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

These were the figures that were in the consultation document for Part P. No idea how accurate they were....

[code:1]Electrical Fatalities Non-fatal injuries Fire damage
installation to property

Shock Fire Shock Fire

Fixed wiring 1.6 1.0 367 80 1,468
Fixed appliance 2.9 4.9 208 101 2,083
Non-portable 4.0 0.3 411 118 1,848
Portable 10.3 18.5 1,326 287 1,288

Total 18.8 24.6 2,313 587 6,688[/code:1]

They justified Part P on the basis of these predicted reductions:

[code:1]Electrical Fatalities Non-fatal injuries Fire damage
installation to property

Shock Fire Shock Fire

Fixed wiring 0.3 0.5 37 39 720
Fixed appliance 0.6 2.4 21 50 1,020
Non-portable 0.8 0.1 41 24 370
Portable 2.1 3.7 133 57 258

Total 3.8 6.6 231 170 2,367[/code:1]

 

[dingbat]

As to time limit it is already in place 10 years between PIR's and any code 1 or 2 faults should be corrected within a year plus code 4 only refers back one edition or amendment

Not so.

There is no such prescription in BS 7671 which simply states that, "It is recommended that every electrical installation is subjected to periodic inspection and testing..." (135.1)

Your ten years comes from the recommendation in GN3 for the maximum interval to the first inspection. Subsequent intervals are recommended by the inspector.

There is also no stated requirement regarding the time to correct defects reported.

And as for code 4, it matters not how old the installation is, all observations and recommendations relate only to the edition of the regulations in force at the time of the inspection.