OK .. for "...will inevitably be reflected...", please read "...is inevitably reflected...".
Kind Regards, John
Smart Meters 'forced' on people?
- Thread starter JohnW2
- Start date
Kind Regards, John
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What's the difference between that and "You don't need it, and if it does make your life easier then you must truly be desperately hard of thinking"?
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I think you've missed the difference.
With a standard meter, when they change the tariff rate they have to tell you in advance, and they have to estimate how much of the usage between readings is attributable to the before and after rates. The rates won't change very often as the administrative overhead is significant.
With a "smart" meter, you can (for example) go into the kitchen to cook dinner and find that the rate has jumped from 12p to (say) £1 per unit. So you then have the choice of paying 8 times the price to cook dinner, or waiting till late evening to do it. That's the first of the rationing measures - "price incentives" to force people to shift their usage away from peaks. Of course, the "well off" can shrug their shoulders and carry on regardless, those on tight household budgets will have to switch off everything they can and stay hungry for a few hours.
The meters have the capability to impose up to 48 different rates in one day (ie there are 48 time of day registers) as their "normal" rates, with the ability to apply temporary overrides (ie apply price based rationing) as required to manage demand. Quite literally, the only way to know what your current rate is is to look at the display.
IIRC they also have the capability to have up to 8 different usage based rates - eg "the first 100 units cost X/unit, the next 200 units cost Y/unit, thereafter it's Z/unit".
As I said, those who sign up for 'fixed rate' tariffs are guaranteed no changes in charges for the duration of the contract.
Are you suggesting that people with smart meters will be denied the opportunity of opting for one of those tariffs? If that is the case, and hence a (potentially major) downside of having a smart meter, they surely would have to point that out in their 'information about smart meters', wouldn't they - and I've not yet seen that suggested or mentioned anywhere.
Kind Regards, John
Of course they aren't going to mention that 
The expectation is that tariffs will remain more or less as they are now - so yes there'll be the opportunity to sign up for fixed deals, for now. But the whole reason for smart meters is the ability to instantly (and temporarily) hike the tariff to "encourage" demand reduction - when teh display turns red, run round turning stuff off So long term, it just won't be tenable to have a hard-fixed rate tariff - it'll be "fixed but we reserve the right to hike it temporarily when needed to keep the network running", ie "mostly fixed".
Expect it to be hidden in the small print, in a locked filing cabinet, in a disused ... (you get the idea).
The expectation is that tariffs will remain more or less as they are now - so yes there'll be the opportunity to sign up for fixed deals, for now. But the whole reason for smart meters is the ability to instantly (and temporarily) hike the tariff to "encourage" demand reduction - when teh display turns red, run round turning stuff off
So long term, it just won't be tenable to have a hard-fixed rate tariff - it'll be "fixed but we reserve the right to hike it temporarily when needed to keep the network running", ie "mostly fixed".Expect it to be hidden in the small print, in a locked filing cabinet, in a disused ... (you get the idea).
Well, from what you go on to say, you seem to be agreeing that it is not currently the case, so there's obviously no need for them to 'mention it'. If it ever becomes the case that accepting a 'smart' meter does preclude entry into a fixed-charge contract then, unless/until smart meters become mandatory', I would expect the regulator to require the suppliers to make it clear to customers that this would be the consequence of 'voluntarily accepting' a smart meter.Of course they aren't going to mention that
Having said that, should such a situation arise, I don't think that action by either the regulator or supply companies would be required. There are far more than enough 'anti-smart-meter' crusaders out there that, should it happen, they would be shouting the message to the world from the rooftops, even if the supply companies' lips remained sealed and the 'small print' of their contracts remained in Fort Knox!
Once most/all people have been cajoled (or forced) into having 'smart' meters, I have no doubt that 'demand management' techniques along the lines you describe will eventually come into existence and if/when that happens there presumably will be an end to contracts so 'fixed' that they precluded such management.
However, I rather doubt that they would ever become as dramatic and draconian as you (and various 'scaremongers' out there!) are suggesting, and might even have minimal impact. Don't forget that, if nocturnal EV charging ever does come to be a major, or even 'dominating', issue, that the 'lower demand' times of the day that suppliers will be trying to induce people to use (by having the cheaper rates then) will tend to come to be during the daytime and early evening - which might enable many people to take advantage of the cheaper rates. In that scenario, it would need to be the nocturnal EV charging that would need to be 'punitively priced', in attempts to stop people doing it!
Kind Regards, John
What, then, do you think is the purpose of installing smart meters - and the compulsory surcharging for them - not leaving it to the suppliers to renew with them when necessary as a matter of course?
By which time it's too late - the meters are there and I imagine it'll be no good shouting that "you didn't tell me about that".
You do give me a good idea for another complaint about their advertising though ...
Indeed. But as above, by this time it's too late. The only way to avoid such management is not to have a meter that does it.
You raise an interesting point there, but the flipside is that if the government succeeds in it's desire for lots more lecky cars*, then the total load on the grid would increase significantly - and thus further erode the current slender supply margin, thus making such management more likely to be needed.
* Personally I don't think they will because they've not taken into account the practicalities - like the majority of people not being able to park on their own property and plug in.
In the medium term, to allow for the sort of (necessarily only time-of-day-based) demand management that Simon has been talking about (which, as I've said, will not necessarily be 'draconian') and, in the much longer term (if/when the country is full of mainly 'smart' appliances) to enable much more sophisticated 'demand management'.
If it is the case that we are heading for a time when an uncontrolled demand is going to outstrip supply, then customers are going to have to accept some sort of 'demand management'. If/when that situation arises, and if we don't implement systems such as has been discussed, I would imagine that the only alternative form of 'demand management' would be regular power cuts.
Somone has to pay for it somehow. You'd have to ask 'them' why they have chosen the financing method that they have.
I don't really understand that.
Just to remind you, I am no campaigner for smart meters, and won't ever be 'asking' for one (and will decline any offer so long as I have that option) - but I do see that, unless network capabilities are rapidly increased (which seems very unlikley), something will have to be done about demand.
Kind Regards, John
As I've just written to EFLI, although I'm no lover of 'smart' meters, I do recognise that, unless someone suddenly magics up a lot more supply (very unlikley), something has to be done to control demand (reduce it overall and/or spread it out more evenly across the day/night).
If you don't like the 'smart' meter-based approach to this 'demand management' which we will almost inevitably need, how would you prefer it to be done? Maybe just by hiking up prices across the board so much that few people would be able to afford to buy 'too much' electricity?
Kind Regards, John
Indeed - and, as I said, quite probably manifested by making electricity cheaper during the daytime and early evening, in an attempt to encourage people to use electricity then, leaving most of the night-generated electricity available for EV charging (if, as we've both said, it comes to happen in a big way, any decade soon).
Kind Regards, John
I'm not actually dead against such management, though personally I prefer the approach of managing supply in a way that the government hasn't done for the last several decades
The issues I have are the excessive and unnecessary data slurp, and the utter dishonesty with which they are being marketed. And of course, the complete and utter stupidity (and hence cost) of installing meters as fast as possible that are KNOWN to not be compatible with the integrated network.
Have you ever seen anything aimed at the non technical user that mentions variable pricing ? Have you seen anything that mentions the data collected ? Have you seen anything that mentions the remote disconnect ? Have you seen anything about the ability to remotely switch to prepay if the supplier thinks you owe them too much money ?
I haven't seen any mention of those, and without them the current sales pitch is completely and deliberately dishonest.
Oh yes, as to why it's financed the way it is, I'd have thought that was obvious - it means that the average user will think they are free and be unaware that they are paying something in the order of £200/meter (last figure I read), so £400 for duel fuels, via price rises.
The issues I have are the excessive and unnecessary data slurp, and the utter dishonesty with which they are being marketed. And of course, the complete and utter stupidity (and hence cost) of installing meters as fast as possible that are KNOWN to not be compatible with the integrated network.
Have you ever seen anything aimed at the non technical user that mentions variable pricing ? Have you seen anything that mentions the data collected ? Have you seen anything that mentions the remote disconnect ? Have you seen anything about the ability to remotely switch to prepay if the supplier thinks you owe them too much money ?
I haven't seen any mention of those, and without them the current sales pitch is completely and deliberately dishonest.
Oh yes, as to why it's financed the way it is, I'd have thought that was obvious - it means that the average user will think they are free and be unaware that they are paying something in the order of £200/meter (last figure I read), so £400 for duel fuels, via price rises.
i can see it coming where people will be given favorable rates to keep there cars trickle charging when not in use
now most electric cars will tend to be in use when peak happens but not all ??
so that gives you a storage capacity off power that could be tapped in the same way solar panels work feeding into the grid
now most electric cars will tend to be in use when peak happens but not all ??
so that gives you a storage capacity off power that could be tapped in the same way solar panels work feeding into the grid
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