Smart meters - good choice?

[Harry Bloomfield]

OK, see what you mean.
It also says
"We understand you opted out of getting a smart meter installed, but your current meter’s certification has expired and we have a legal obligation to replace it."
which I should have included. That seems to be laying it on thick.

I read as deliberately written, so as to be misunderstood, that a smart meter fitting was essential.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Obviously the suppliers must have millions of spare dumb meters that they have replaced which could be used.

 

[Scally-Ho]

My main objection to smart meters is that the supply can be shut off remotely without my permission. Tariffs do not bother me, but losing the supply does because my wife needs heat light and power 24/7 no iffs or buts. Yes, we (she) have an entry on the vulnerable customer list, but I much prefer standard metering where I control the supply other than during a general area outage.

 

[morqthana]

Obviously the suppliers must have millions of spare dumb meters that they have replaced which could be used.

Unless they have a policy of scrapping them once removed. Or have sold them all off to a startup called Luddite Energy who are taking a punt on a business model of selling electricity at uncompetitively high prices to smart meter refuseniks

If I understand it correctly, they are the ones with a legal obligation to install a certain number of smart meters, so it would be in their interests to only have smart meters available on the shelf.

Again, IIUIC, this is the legal landscape for consumers

1) They cannot be forced to swap a perfectly good dumb meter for a smart one if they don't want to.
2) Suppliers are free to offer attractive tariffs which are only available to people with smart meters.
3) When a dumb meter has to be replaced because of age/damage/faults/whatever, a consumer has no legal right to refuse a smart meter if that is all that the supplier offers, only to seek out an alternative supplier who will install a "new" dumb meter, if any such suppliers exist.

 

[EFLImpudence]

My main objection to smart meters is that the supply can be shut off remotely without my permission. Tariffs do not bother me, but losing the supply does because my wife needs heat light and power 24/7 no iffs or buts. Yes, we (she) have an entry on the vulnerable customer list, but I much prefer standard metering where I control the supply other than during a general area outage.

Yes, it is just one more means of control which some people appear to agree with and welcome.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Unless they have a policy of scrapping them once removed. Or have sold them all off to a startup called Luddite Energy who are taking a punt on a business model of selling electricity at uncompetitively high prices to smart meter refuseniks

If I understand it correctly, they are the ones with a legal obligation to install a certain number of smart meters, so it would be in their interests to only have smart meters available on the shelf.

Again, IIUIC, this is the legal landscape for consumers

1) They cannot be forced to swap a perfectly good dumb meter for a smart one if they don't want to.
2) Suppliers are free to offer attractive tariffs which are only available to people with smart meters.
3) When a dumb meter has to be replaced because of age/damage/faults/whatever, a consumer has no legal right to refuse a smart meter if that is all that the supplier offers, only to seek out an alternative supplier who will install a "new" dumb meter, if any such suppliers exist.

Then you will have to show that 3 is correct. IYUIC.

 

[morqthana]

My main objection to smart meters is that the supply can be shut off remotely without my permission. Tariffs do not bother me, but losing the supply does because my wife needs heat light and power 24/7 no iffs or buts. Yes, we (she) have an entry on the vulnerable customer list, but I much prefer standard metering where I control the supply other than during a general area outage.

The other side of that coin though is the ability to maintain your wife's essential supply by diverting the shut-offs only to those who can tolerate them during periods of supply shortage. TBF, I don't think we've ever seen power cuts because of supply shortfall, but the day may come.

 

[morqthana]

Yes, it is just one more means of control which some people appear to agree with and welcome.

OOI, on a scale of 0 to totalitarian subjugation, where do you put being controlled by smart meters?

Is it above, or below, having the right to own a car taken from you, or above or below being confined to a small ghetto only 15 minutes travel from edge to edge?

 

[Scally-Ho]

@morqthana I very much doubt if the electrical supply to my house could be selected to remain on during a general area outage. I know where my supply cable is jointed into the main run from the local transformer farm and if my local transformer loses supply, then my supply drops out too.

 

[EFLImpudence]

OOI, on a scale of 0 to totalitarian subjugation, where do you put being controlled by smart meters?

Is it above, or below, having the right to own a car taken from you, or above or below being confined to a small ghetto only 15 minutes travel from edge to edge?

Does it matter?

Is everything acceptable to you if it could be worse?

 

[morqthana]

Then you will have to show that 3 is correct. IYUIC.

No, I won't, because I'm not that bothered, and am quite happy to leave it at the AFAIK stage.

Also, it's very difficult to prove a negative, but incredibly easy to prove a positive, so anybody who desperately wants to show that I'm wrong can easily reference legislation/regulation which does provide a legal right for consumers to refuse a smart meter.

Of course that could be a double edged sword for anybody keen to prove me wrong if at the same time it blows a hole in their theory that we are being forced to have smart meters so that we can be "controlled".

 

[morqthana]

@morqthana I very much doubt if the electrical supply to my house could be selected to remain on during a general area outage. I know where my supply cable is jointed into the main run from the local transformer farm and if my local transformer loses supply, then my supply drops out too.

I'm not talking about general outages caused by cable faults, transformer fires, storm damage etc.

But if (which as I said I don't think we have ever seen) rolling "area outages" have to be implemented because of a widespread lack of capacity, the potential for doing those with smart meters is that even in such an area some people could have their supply maintained.

But given a lack of any need for such deliberate outages, let me ask you this:

My main objection to smart meters is that the supply can be shut off remotely without my permission.

Please outline the, or any, scenarios where they might do that.

 

[EFLImpudence]

No, I won't, because I'm not that bothered, and am quite happy to leave it at the AFAIK stage.

So - might be wrong and you don't care.

Also, it's very difficult to prove a negative, but incredibly easy to prove a positive, so anybody who desperately wants to show that I'm wrong can easily reference legislation/regulation which does provide a legal right for consumers to refuse a smart meter.

Don't you have that the wrong way round? Your assertion that the customer cannot refuse is the negative.

Of course that could be a double edged sword for anybody keen to prove me wrong if at the same time it blows a hole in their theory that we are being forced to have smart meters so that we can be "controlled".

I accept that they will be compulsory one day.

 

[ericmark]

My main objection to smart meters is that the supply can be shut off remotely without my permission. Tariffs do not bother me, but losing the supply does because my wife needs heat light and power 24/7 no iffs or buts. Yes, we (she) have an entry on the vulnerable customer list, but I much prefer standard metering where I control the supply other than during a general area outage.

I do see your point, and until I got solar and battery I felt the same. With solar and battery, no grid supply will not automatically mean not electric, although what gets electric is reduced.

It does depend on the time of year, and the time of day as to how long I can go on with no grid supply. We would prefer power 24/7, but could not say we need power, it would involve some danger if we lose power, specially in winter, as I do not store wood in the house, loads outside, but in ice or snow going down the steps and slopes to get it, is dangerous, I have already had one fall going to reset a RCBO, which resulted in us getting extra handrails.

Be the loss of supply be due to RCBO tripping, the smart meter being turned off, or a general power cut, we know it can happen, we have in 1978-9 seen this happen with a Labour government, after the bin men went on strike, and we were turned off as a block and did not matter if one was very old or very young we lost all the heating to our house, the heating was gas, but without electric it would not work.

So we do a risk assessment, and I decided I can lose lights, sockets etc, but I need heating and the freezers to continue to run. So the solar and battery will likely keep my freezers and central heating running, and I have one spare socket for anything else. Before solar and batteries, I would have lost the contents of the freezer, and central heating, and would have needed in Winter to open up the open grate so I could burn wood.

If my wife or I had some ailment which required power, then I would clearly need a better system, a generator for example, as can not be sure when a power cut happens that there is enough in the batteries. And I would require this back up whether I have a smart meter or not. The roads around here are too steep to rely on road rescue in poor weather. If it snows, we simply don't go out.

So I am also listed as a vulnerable customer, but in real terms that does not help, we need electric for the heating to work, and if you look at the amount of power cuts due to road works, high winds, floods, etc, the amount of power cuts due to an error on which smart meter to turn off becomes insignificant, if you rely on electric power, then one needs an alternative to the grid supply.

 

[Scally-Ho]

@morqthana Please outline the, or any, scenarios where they might do that.

Selective load shedding could be instigated remotely exactly as happened during the 3 day week period of 1973-4 when rolling black-outs left my wife and children reliant on a 12v TV and low wattage 12v lamps, plus a match ignited gas cooker and radiant fire. It didn't matter too much back then, but now my wife has become disabled, light and heat as and when needed are essential.