Sprinkler systems

[hard-work]

Grenfell Tower was 43 years old and just been refurbished, so I think that it should have had another 7 years of life.

It was clad for sure. Did it have consumer units with RCD/RCBO's in all flats? It has a gas pipe in it, I believe running up the common stairwell to a roof mounted common heating boiler, which broke and caught alight until the gas men dug up the road and isolated the gas. There were no sprinklers for sure. Refurbished? Nah!

There should be no gas in tower blocks. The common boiler should be in a separate building on ground level. I hope regs are tightened to do this.

Trelick Tower, not far from Grenfell, has the lift and stairs in a separate service shaft. This is much safer and keeps noise away from the flats. It had the boiler on the top of the service shaft, but now all flats have electric heaters. Having two service shafts gives far better safety.

 

[Doggit]

I question that. Water on the floor and maybe running out of the front door of a flat, would keep back smoke and fire which is mainly at the top of rooms

You could have checked it yourself first, then you wouldn't have had to question it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/15/grenfell-tower-mother-saves-family-flooding-flat/

ou could have a drain pipe from the furthest point and all is needed is opening a valve once a year to drain off the stagnant water in the sprinkler system.

This problem has occured because of the Blair governments legislation to cut down emmisions. But it's reckoned that the next major scarce resource will be water, so they'd soon stop that idea.

 

[^woody^]

Oops. About right then.


What Is a High-Rise Building?

A building is an enclosed structure that has walls, floors, a roof, and usually windows. “ A ‘ tall building ’is a multi-story structure in which most occupants depend on elevators [lifts] to reach their destinations. The most prominent tall buildings are called ‘ high-rise buildings ’in most countries and ‘ tower blocks ’in Britain and some European countries. The terms do not have internationally agreed definitions. ” However, a high-rise building can be defined as follows:

• “Any structure where the height can have a serious impact on evacuation ” ( The International Conference on Fire Safety in High-Rise Buildings ) .
• “For most purposes, the cut-off point for high-rise buildings is around seven stories. Sometimes, seven stories or higher define a high-rise, and sometimes the definition is more than seven stories. Sometimes, the definition is stated in terms of linear height (feet or meters) rather than stories.”
• “ Generally, a high-rise structure is considered to be one that extends higher than the maximum reach of available fire-fighting equipment. In absolute numbers, this has been set variously between 75 feet (23 meters) and 100 feet (30 meters), ” or about seven to ten stories (depending on the slab-to-slab distance between floors).

The exact height above which a particular building is deemed a high-rise is specified by fire and building codes for the country, region, state, or city where the building is located. When the building exceeds the specified height, then fire, an ever-present danger in such facilities, must be fought by fire personnel from inside the building rather than from outside using fire hoses and ladders. For practicality and convenience such a multi-level or multi-story structure uses elevators as a vertical transportation system and, in addition, some utilize escalators to move people between lower floors.

https://booksite.elsevier.com/samplechapters/9781856175555/02~Chapter_1.pdf

Yes there is nothing like an America book to tell those in the UK about waht is a high-rise building, and use feet and inches too.

Try the (UK) Building Act or Building Regualtions instead.

 

[JohnD]

You could have checked it yourself first, then you wouldn't have had to question it.

I know the Torygraph has to say things that will sell newspapers, but surely you recognise that being led to safety by firefighters might have been possible for various reasons, such as the flat's height, the progress of the fire, the time of rescue, and the amount of smoke in the stairwell at the time.

It would be a rash fantasy to claim that the only reason for survival was water on the floor of the flat.

 

[JohnD]

This problem has occured because of the Blair governments legislation to cut down emmisions.

Oh Doggitt, you are funny.

You claim that obsolete regulations, permitting homes to be wrapped in flammable materials, and a succession of four housing ministers who sat on their fat arses and refused to heed recommendations and advice, were not the key contributors to the catastrophe.

I bet your house has thermal insulation in the loft, and maybe the walls. Most likely it is not going to cause your home to be destroyed and your family doomed in 17 minutes.

 

[hard-work]

As to Doggitt and his pro Tory tripe...

Six people died in Camberwell in a high-rise fire in 2009. The report was on the desks of ministers in 2013. It recommended the changing of building regs as panelling (non-insulated) was the reason the fire spread. They did Nothing!

The Communities Department had a specialist unit responsible for fire safety. It was abolished in 2010 by Tory austerity measures. UK expertise on fire protection was the best in the world not long ago. Not now.

Cameron promised to abolish the ‘albatross’ of over regulation’, saying in 2012 that a Tory government would: ‘Kill off the health and safety culture for good’. More than 2,400 pieces of regulation have been scrapped since Cut Red Tape began. Confirmed deaths from the fire in Kensington is expected to keep rising.

Tory MP Nick Hurd is May's new Police and Fire Minister. He was among the 72 MPs who voted against a Labour motion to make homes 'fit for human habitation' last year. 70 of the Tory MPs were landlords.

£369m for Buckingham Palace refurbishment for one family. That is one out of 9 palaces we fund. £5m for 144 families in West London that was so poor it killed many of them

The Tories axed 2000 firemen with many front line fire engines removed. 10 fire stations in London were closed with most being in the East End, where most tower blocks are.

When cutting London's fire stations Boris Johnson told the fire safety panel to 'get stuffed'.

The Tories were to relax safety regs in new schools to save money. They have now done a U turn due to public protests.

They have a lot of blood on their hands.

How prophetic...

 

[John D v2.0]

None ever died in a building with sprinklers. According to the sprinkler company. Buildings with sprinklers are usually newer and have not been refurbished on the cheap.
No one ever died in a fire in a building made of Cheddar cheese. According to the cheese company.

Correlation does not imply causation.

 

[motorbiking]

None ever died in a building with sprinklers. According to the sprinkler company. Buildings with sprinklers are usually newer and have not been refurbished on the cheap.
No one ever died in a fire in a building made of Cheddar cheese. According to the cheese company.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Yes, its bogus statistics for simpletons. It reminds me of the Speed Kills statistics made up by pyramid funded camera partnerships. "Speed Cameras reduce accidents by a 1/3rd". They only ever put them on roads where there had been an increase of accidents, so statistical normalisation would result in a reduction anyway.

 

[wessex101]

Lets not turn this into a party political argument. I've worked in Social Housing and various public sectors such as NHS, MOD, Local Government etc. whilst both parties were in Government and they were both equally crap. The various problems that seem to have caused Grenfell go way back and are a result of both parties political meddling. In fact most things in the public sector would be so much better if ALL politicians just backed off and left it to the people who actually work in them to decide what is best.

 

[^woody^]

Yes, back to the sprinkler argument.

There are more people killed and injured from slips trips and falls at home than from fires. So should it be time to ban hard concrete patio slabs and paving, and require soft cushioned surfaces, no steps and no corners on the raised bed walls?

 

[hard-work]

Yes, back to the sprinkler argument.

There are more people killed and injured from slips trips and falls at home than from fires. So should it be time to ban hard concrete patio slabs and paving, and require soft cushioned surfaces, no steps and no corners on the raised bed walls?

Fire can get a grip quite fast and kill quickly. In high-rises it can kill quite a lot very quickly.

 

[John D v2.0]

Fire can get a grip quite fast and kill quickly. In high-rises it can kill quite a lot very quickly.

Agreed. So they should be designed and maintained very carefully. What's your point?

 

[tomfe]

Trelick Tower, not far from Grenfell, has the lift and stairs in a separate service shaft.

Sadly although a good idea it would add far too much cost for social housing and probably private as well.

I don't think there is any need for sprinklers in most buildings, there will have been loads of fires in Grenfell and before the cladding was put on none of these would have caused a catastrophic fire.

 

[wessex101]

Fire can get a grip quite fast and kill quickly. In high-rises it can kill quite a lot very quickly.

And yet history says otherwise. Tower blocks that are not covered in flammable plastic seem to kill very few people. Maybe that is what we should be focusing on rather than getting distracted by the British Automatic Fire Sprinkler Association's and others determined lobbying campaign.

 

[motorbiking]

You don't need sprinklers, you just need my plumber to install some pipework. Guaranteed to keep your property soaking wet