Spur from Ring

[dannyboi2003]

To be frank Frank ur a complete and utter arse! As RF says why come here asking advice when your hell bent on ignoring it anyway. There is no way on gods earth that you have "found" an electrician to certify this work so please don’t insult our intelligence by saying you have. If I knew where you were I would report you to every single authority I could in order to ensure the safety of your tenants. You haven’t got a clue what your doing, oh and good luck finding a 16a fused spur

That’s me done on this thread; I’ll look out for you on the news when your house burns down.

 

[YorksSparks]

Don't get misled by the "minor works vs electrical installation" that isn't isn't even correct or slightly relevant to this situation.

Your proposed work involves provision of new fixed cabling thus IS notifiable under Part P of the Building Regs. Your council obviously have a much idea of the correct implementation of Part P as most do.

Do the work, sod 'em. As has been said here and elsewhere - what f'kin hope is there if even the LABC don't f'kin know the rules!!!

Have you read this thread elsewhere - it makes things very clear;

http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/forum1/diy-electrical-work-and-the-law-t6296.html

Important bit is;

"At the time of writing, only the following work was classed as not needing notification to LABC, either directly by householder/DIYer, or via a registered electrician’s supervising scheme:

1. Work consisting of -

(a) replacing any fixed electrical equipment which does
not include the provision of—

(i) any new fixed cabling or circuit.

You ARE installing new fixed cabling AND creating a new circuit - spur - thus it IS notifiable.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Your proposed work involves provision of new fixed cabling thus IS notifiable under Part P of the Building Regs.

No it's not.

Your council obviously have a much idea of the correct implementation of Part P as most do.

Or as do you.

Have you read this thread elsewhere - it makes things very clear;

Nice of you to say so, even if it isn't true in your case

Important bit is;

"At the time of writing, only the following work was classed as not needing notification to LABC, either directly by householder/DIYer, or via a registered electrician’s supervising scheme:

Please don't misquote me.

1. Work consisting of -

(a) replacing any fixed electrical equipment which does
not include the provision of—

(i) any new fixed cabling or circuit.

You ARE installing new fixed cabling AND creating a new circuit - spur - thus it IS notifiable.

Any reason why you stopped there, instead of carrying on until you reached[code:1]2. Work which -

(a) is not in a kitchen, or a special location,

(b) does not involve work on a special installation, and

(c) consists of -


(i) adding light fittings and switches to an
existing circuit or

(ii) adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an
existing ring or radial circuit. [/code:1]??

 

[YorksSparks]

Your proposed work involves provision of new fixed cabling thus IS notifiable under Part P of the Building Regs.

No it's not.

Your council obviously have a much idea of the correct implementation of Part P as most do.

Or as do you.

Have you read this thread elsewhere - it makes things very clear;

Nice of you to say so, even if it isn't true in your case

Important bit is;

"At the time of writing, only the following work was classed as not needing notification to LABC, either directly by householder/DIYer, or via a registered electrician’s supervising scheme:

Please don't misquote me.

1. Work consisting of -

(a) replacing any fixed electrical equipment which does
not include the provision of—

(i) any new fixed cabling or circuit.

You ARE installing new fixed cabling AND creating a new circuit - spur - thus it IS notifiable.

Any reason why you stopped there, instead of carrying on until you reached[code:1]2. Work which -

(a) is not in a kitchen, or a special location,

(b) does not involve work on a special installation, and

(c) consists of -


(i) adding light fittings and switches to an
existing circuit or

(ii) adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an
existing ring or radial circuit. [/code:1]??

Touche, point conceded, reading to the very end is a virtue!

I stopped where I did as I didn't want to post the whole lot - he can go read it for himself can't he?

I added (slightly) to your text for clarification purposes - touchy aren't you.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

To be frank Frank ur a complete and utter a**e! As RF says why come here asking advice when your hell bent on ignoring it anyway.

Apart from "get an electrician", what advice is he ignoring?

He's checked with his council about the HMO licencing.

He's checked with his council about the notifiability (they are right - it isn't), but none of the people going on about that even bothered to ask if he lived in England or Wales.

He's fitting Ofgem approved meters.

There is no way on gods earth that you have "found" an electrician to certify this work so please don’t insult our intelligence by saying you have.

How do you know?

The wiring is all going to be in surface trunking and therefore accessible for I&T - maybe the certification will be the I&T part of an EIC. Or maybe it'll be a PIR and he's not using the correct term.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I stopped where I did as I didn't want to post the whole lot - he can go read it for himself can't he?

But stopping where you did meant that you got it completely wrong about it being notifiable....

 

[JonoPashley]

Honestly? you will spend more time replacing blown fuses than doing anything else, and will probably end up having to have the job done properly. So why not have it done right first time and get a qualified spark in to sort it out.

 

[frank999]

Thanks for clarifying things, so I am right in all I have proposed regarding IEE Regulations, LABC, and final Certification for this surface mounted, fused radial Spur ... apart from the 16AMP FCU, this should be 13AMP (which is how it is supplied), the fuse will be kept at 13amp.

The tenants who use a heater will be restricted to a 1.5kw Oil Filled radiator, that will use 6.5 amps, + a TV, PC, alarm clock and Sound system - they should use no more than 1 amp together, so I should be well under the 13 amp rating of the FCU.

I had a long conversation with the company who will come and certify this Non-Notifiable work, and who are happy to come and certify what I am proposing, I am going to get them in to actually see exactly what work I will be doing before its done, and then have them back when its done to certify. I have worked with this company (NICEIC member) on other utility certification matters and trust them to do the right thing here too.

At the end of the day I only wish to do the work I am legally allowed to do, I am sure it would invalidate my insurance and open me up to litigation with my tenants if I was to do otherwise.
I will do some further reading on BS 7671 to make sure I'm aware of what exactly is required (position of sockets, running of cables, connection of wires) for this work, these books seem applicable:

17th Edition IEE Wiring Regulations: Explained & Illustrated: Explained and Illustrated (IEE Wiring Regulations, 17th edition) (Paperback)

Domestic Electrical Installation Guide: The NICEIC Guide to Domestic Installation Work - Updated to IEE Wiring Regulations 17th Edition BS 7671: 2008 (Spiral-bound)

If the tenant wishes to leave his/her heater on all night - or maybe forget to turn it off during a work day - thats fine by me - I just wont be paying for it.

 

[sparkyspike]

It looks like you really want to do this. Instead, I would fit TRVs on each rad (someone mentioned this earlier). They're really cheap, quick to fit, and IMO will be a much better option.

Otherwise, adjust the rent to meet current fuel prices.

 

[frank999]

Thanks for your TRV suggestion, but not sure how thats going to give me accountability for the electricity each tenant uses, as said before I have a nice modern central heating system, (and rads with TRV's), but that doesn't seem warm enough for them (being English I find 18 degrees hot enough - too hot if your active, in London I've found more than half of my tenants are foreign from warmer climates and they prefer it as hot as it can get - 25/26 degrees day and night). I tried putting up the rent, but they have resisted - its very difficult in the current economic climate. Surely you must agree this is the ideal - your charged for what you use. The prepayment meters cost £16 each, + few metres of cable, SA trucking and a 13 AMP FCU, £25 Total Cost - it'll pay for itself in one months usage

 

[JonoPashley]

SA Trunking wont stick for long, use the plain stuff and screw it on.

 

[sm1thson]

install a 13amp FCU and then from that have two double sockets in a radial circuit.

This circuit should allow say a 1.5kw heater, TV and PC to be used ??

3 of my tenants are foreign and come from a nice warm country and have 2.5 kw heaters in their rooms,

I wouldnt want any room in my house to be limited to 13a and i dont have electric fan heaters (other than in the conservatory). What about when they put a kettle/ hoover /etc in the room your already planning it to run beyond its design current. they need a proper radial for each room.

even then this doesnt account for the trip hazard of the extension leads up the stairs and across the hallway.

 

[sparkyspike]

I can see what you are trying to achieve, but from an electrician's point of view, it's very bad design. The proper way to do meter the rooms, is to wire each room (sockets and lights) individually to seperate meters at the distribution board, then have a landlord's board and meter to pay for any communal lighting, power, fire alarms etc.

If you have a multiple occupancy situation then you really should do it this way. Obviously the cost of this will be difficult to recover in the short term, but is the best way to do it.

Otherwise, I would go for the TRVs to control the heat and up the rent accordingly. It seems a bit unfair to offer rooms for rent and then limit the temperature in each room because it's hotter than you would have it. Is your main issue just the cost of the electricity or are you also concerned with CO2 emmisions etc - have you thought about how the property is insulated?

 

[frank999]

Thanks for comment on the trunking - I will screw them to the wall.

I agree that the best way to do a radial circuit is to use 4.0mm cable from the distribution board - but carpets and underlay are laid - and tenants rooms are full of possessions - so to go off the existing ring causes least disruption for the tenants.
My tenants dont use kettles in their room (I have a proper kitchen they use for that) so 1x 1.5kw heater, 1x PC, 1x TV + mobile chargers + consoles - say no more than 7/8 amps total usage is well within limits. I will tape a spare 13amp fuse to the FCU unit - just in case it blows and show them how to change it, and inform the tenants that if it does blow - they have overloaded their circuit and need to unplug some items (I will let them know there is a pot of 13amp fuses in the broom cupboard, in case they blow the spare).

I think this is the best solution, my other tenant has just returned and is happy with the arrangement ... everybody wins.

 

[rebuke]

I take it you don't require your tenants to keep their rooms clean and tidy then, since as soon as one plugs a hoover in with anything else going (in particular a heater) they will blow the fuse...