Surge Suppression?

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Surge suppression or filtering....

Client wants some protection to a radial circuit feeding tills. They are not sure what they really want, and I am not too sure what to spec.

You can get filtering to reduce noise and surge suppression to eliminate issues with lightning etc.

There is nothing that seems to do both? Is there anything that is recommended? We used to fit some MEM kit which was in a metal box, 32amp in and 32amp out, not sure what is preferred these days, and having fired of a couple emails to companies, I receive pricing between £50 and £1500, all pertaining to do the same sort of job!

Basically, something to protect a 32amp radial circuit feeding a server and some tills from surges is the main thing I guess, filtering being a good option too.

Anyone familiar with this?
 
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Client wants some protection to a radial circuit feeding tills. They are not sure what they really want, and I am not too sure what to spec. .... Basically, something to protect a 32amp radial circuit feeding a server and some tills from surges is the main thing I guess, filtering being a good option too.
Hardly the sort of answer you were looking for, but ... I suppose the most professional approach might be for you to give them your honest professional opinion as to whether any of that is 'necessary' or likely to prove worthwhile!

Kind Regards, John
 
I had a till in the canteen at work that kept sulking due to some 'rough'mains. I fitted a plug-in filter which did the trick. I will find the one it was tomorrow for you and you may be able to find a hard wired equivalent that will work for you.
Ideally you want surge suppression and filtering.
 
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Server should be on a UPS

and the circuits can be surge protected by a surge protector in the consumer unit, Hager do a kit for their consumer units.
 
What about just fitting those MK filtered sockets at the till positions?
 
Surge suppression or filtering....

Client wants some protection to a radial circuit feeding tills. They are not sure what they really want, and I am not too sure what to spec.

You can get filtering to reduce noise and surge suppression to eliminate issues with lightning etc.

Regarding surge suppression and lightning protection, A lot of it is snake oil. As said above, A UPS would be appropriate for a server and some tills.
There are different types of UPS, online/offline/line interactive. Online is usually best. It will absorb surges, but might not survive a direct lightning strike, neither will any other type.

Are they supplied by overhead (telephone/mains) cables or situated on top of a hill?
 
The server has a UPS already, and the wiring was done to allow a large UPS, but only a small one for the server and the rack kit was deemed as required.

The server has locked up a few times after storms or power cuts, and the support company have said its due to surges and that protection is required. When this server hangs, it affects all their stores, not just this head office.

I am not sure what type of UPS it is, not been to sight for ages. I guess it is letting surges through though.

It is an out of town development, not particularly on a hill, but certainly not in the sticks so to speak.

The phone lines (ISDN30) and corporate leased lines are all fibre.
 
When this server hangs, it affects all their stores, not just this head office.
Ah, the goalposts have moved a little from "protection to a radial circuit feeding tills".
The server has a UPS already ...The server has locked up a few times after storms or power cuts, and the support company have said its due to surges and that protection is required. I am not sure what type of UPS it is, not been to sight for ages. I guess it is letting surges through though.
If that were the case, then I imagine that getting a decent UPS might well be the correct answer. However, I'm not sure that your guess is necessarily correct - the support company are presumably just speculating when they blame 'surges' for the server-lockups (i.e. they haven't got a better idea), and they could well be wrong. Alleged 'surges' get blamed for all sorts of things these days, and they're not really able to defend themselve against such accusations!

Kind Regards, John
 
While I agree that surges to get the blame, the lockups have all been during storms, or immediately after power is restored.

John. I deliberately didn't expand too much in the original post, didn't see much point. I was requesting info on what others fit, and not so much looking for advice on if it's required. I have to provide a quote, not advice. I have already queried if it is truly required, and the company have asked me to quote for it with a view of installing it to satisfy the IT company. If they still have issues, it is proven. The goal posts have not changed, the query is the same, I just worded it to make it sound straight forward and obvious.
 
Surges on the mains supply to individual items of equipment should not cause a lock up. The power supply module should absorb the surge without allowiing it to have any affect on the various internal supplies.

Where mains surges do cause problems is when there are two or more items supplied from different branches of the mains system and interconnected by data and other non mains interconnections. It is the difference in "earth" voltages caused by the mains surge that create currents in the 0 volt lines of the data connections. These currents create data errors which can be massive enough to over load error correction capacity at which point the system shuts down ( good design ) or crashes.

Options are to use
[1] isolating modules in data links preventing ground currents flowing in them

[2] Use a clean earth ( NOT the CPC ) for the entire IT network. CPC protects the cables and the clean earth protects the equipment.

Fitting surge protection to an office computor connected to data collecting equipment on the factory floor increased the number of system glitches ( it re-started automatically after a "crash" ) , clean earth to both was not an option but a opto isolated RS232 ( serial data ) module solved the problem.
 
Serial was renown for this issue, but this should not happen with ethernet as far as I am aware (it is balanced, and does not reference to earth).

The server and the other kit connected to it (including the few tills on this site) are all on the same circuit, so differing voltages on the earth are unlikely. They where put on the same circuit for a reason.
 
While I agree that surges to get the blame, the lockups have all been during storms, or immediately after power is restored.
Lockups during (and due to) storms are not necessarily due to any mains-bourne or mains-related phenomenon and, in any event, a reasonable UPS ought to deal with that. Also, "after power is restored" really ought not to have any particular significance in the presence of an adequate UPS. If 'something funny' comes out of a UPS when power is restored to it, would that not indicate something wrong (or, at least, unacceptable) about the UPS?
John. I deliberately didn't expand too much in the original post, didn't see much point. I was requesting info on what others fit, and not so much looking for advice on if it's required. I have to provide a quote, not advice. I have already queried if it is truly required, and the company have asked me to quote for it with a view of installing it to satisfy the IT company. If they still have issues, it is proven. The goal posts have not changed, the query is the same, I just worded it to make it sound straight forward and obvious.
Fair enough, and I rather suspected that you would already have queried whether this work is 'required' - I mentioned/questioned simply because you hadn't actually said so. If I were you, I think I would probably want to go on record as having expressed the view that the requested work might well not have result in cure of the problems they have been experiencing!

Kind Regards, John
 
Oooh, this is well into black art territory !

Firstly, ethernet is transformer coupled and balanced so should normally be fairly immune to a lot of external influences. Not the use of the word "should" there :rolleyes:

My guess for UPS will be that they went to a supplier and said "how much for a UPS" with nothing more that the load it's supplying. The vast majority of small UPSs are some variation of off-line or line-interactive - ie they just pass the mains through while it's there and they may or may not have any voltage adjustment* or filtering.
You only tend to get into on-line stuff when you get into the bigger (and more expensive) sizes. The 12kVA unit at work cost around £6k, an equivalent APC unit (Symmetra) tips the scales at around £13k :eek: But I digress.

If the OP is in an area prone to storms, then yes, some form of filtering/surge protection could well be in order - you don't need a direct lightning strike to cause big problems. When a customer phones you to say there was a bang and now there's a burning smell coming from the cupboard where the server lives then you know something happened. But to be fully effective, you must route ALL circuits to the installation through one point - it's not so much a case of preventing a surge getting in, but making sure that it can't have different effects on different bits of the system.
For example, a previous boss lived in a house in the sticks, and was forever replacing the fax machine - but not the basic phones. The problem is that a common mode surge down either mains or phone line gets converted to an unbalanced surge between phone line and mains. So you need to route both phone line and power through one point, so surge protectors on both can share a common point which you ground as best you can. You'll still get a fair bit of surge getting to the equipment - bit it's now common mode across all parts of it, and that would be the case even if the earthing wasn't too good.
Some people may recognise a similarity with "earthing" and "equipotential bonding" with regard to mains supplies, water pipes etc.

I'll qualify that "earthing not too good" bit by pointing out that with lightning induces surges, the rise time can be such that the inductance of a few meters of 10mm2 cable renders it effectively an open circuit to the spike. That's why you need to bring all protected circuits to one point - if you install protectors on different circuits at different places (eg phones come it at opposite end of building to power) then the cable connecting them may as well not be there if considering lightning induced surges.
I've seen a very good demonstration (not involving lightning) of this. The test rig was a small DC motor, and an amplifier to pick up the noise from it. The test rig included a very expensive (military) filter in the supply to the motor, which was rendered ineffective by about 1 foot of large earth strap (probably in excess of 10mm2). The demonstration simply involved pushing on the filter (mounted on shock mounts) so it's mounting bolts earthed it directly to the metal plate the rig was on and the noise disappeared.


* At my last job we put in an APC Matrix 5000. A heavy beast with a tap changing facility which I;d occasionally hear it operating. Gave me "a bit of a start" the first time I heard it - sounded like a few shorted turns for a couple of seconds !
 

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