The anti poppy group banned.

[zanwan]

Poppies, poppies, poppies! What are they all about?

There was a time when I thought I knew. That would have been back in the mid-sixties when kids my age gradually gave up chanting "In 1944, we won the war -- " (historically inaccurate but it rhymed) and started to think about the very real possibilty of World War III.

There was a growing protest against war in general which was spilling over into a protest against poppies but our history teacher put us right: "If you want to blame somebody for wars blame politicians, not the poor s*d who got his leg blown off." I immediately thought of the old man in our street who used to sit in a wheelchair in his front doorway on sunny mornings. He needed the wheelchair because he only had one leg.

So I ignored all the comments about how poppies glorified war and wore one every year. Then, some time in the seventies, I heard about white 'peace' poppies, though I never actually saw one. What was that all about? Surely the red poppy was a peace poppy! I think it was about then that I gave up actually wearing a poppy but I always paid for one (my logic was that poppies cost money to make).

But this year the whole poppy controversy seems to have kicked off again. Is it just my perception or did people on TV start wearing them excessively early? And how come they've all got one? Does everybody who appears on any kind of chat show get given one on the way in? Or, more likely, are they cajoled into buying one before they're allowed in front of the camera. I suppose that's consistent with the way so many charities wave direct debit forms under our noses and tell us how much we should give them. Sorry but no deal!

And so I've given up. There seems to be little hope that the poppy - at least the red one - will not cause arguments over the rights and wrongs of some war or other. Soldiers don't start wars and the 'poor s*d who got his leg blown off' deserves all the help he can get so I paid for two poppies this year - but I won't be wearing one. Rant over.

I admire your position.

People say soldeirs are not to blame for war. But they are the ones engaging in it. They are not conscripts but volunteer professional soldiers. If they prepared to object to being sent to wars in far away lands agianst people that have done no harm to this country, these wars would not take place.

There are consequences of refusing orders, but if the order is to kill people for no reason but because your politicians have told you, then the most noble thing to do would be to refuse outright. I personally could never harm anyone that had done me no harm. I am no pacifist and accept sometimes wars must be fought, but ONLY wars of self defence, not wars fought for the natural resources of other countries or wars fought for the business interests of large arms manufacturuers who make billions from these wars.

In recent years the poppy has come to symbolise support for not just past soldiers (who fought in noble wars for noble reasons) but for those engaged in the brutal occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan which have literally destroyed the two countries, contrary to the nonsense politicians and the media are spouting. Not only this but they have caused a breeding ground for violent extremism and terrorism which has led to the ovethrow of pro-western regimes who are now to be replaced by Islamic Shariah governments, and can we blame these people? They have had their countries invaded and bombed back to the stone ages with thousands of the innocent men, women and children blown to peices.

With that in mind, i refuse to wear or buy the poppy as i do not wish to show any support towards those engaged in these current unethical wars against weak defenceless nations.

If people wish to hurl insults and abuse at me, go right ahead. However i will never support these wars regardless if british soldiers are fighting in them. My support and sympathy lies with the innocent men women and children who have had their lives destroyed by these wars.

 

[Alarm]

I suggest you re-read some of this
The poppy is not for people in current conflicts, but for those who have died.

Do get it right.

And remember you help pay for the ones currently involved

 

[ABCwarrior]

So where is the cut-off point then? Falklands? First Gulf War? Second Gulf War? Iraq? Does Ireland count? Is it only those that have died in official campaigns or also those that we don't know about in covert/black-ops? Is it only "official" troops(the Queens forces) or does it include the mercenaries who work "security"?
People "die in current conflicts", surely they must be remembered as much as yer old grandad (if you decide to wear a poppy) who was torpedoed off Scapa Flow by the Germans in 1942, even if they only died yesterday (shot through their night vision laser guided GPS stealth goggles by some fella in bare feet with a musket....There's an Afghan saying "They have the watches(technology), but we have the time")

 

[Alarm]

Death is the cut off point.
Pretty F`kin obvious.
But it does not pay for the conflict.
That was the point.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber.

 

[ABCwarrior]

Aaaah...so get the caps off and go and lobby or sell poppies to the oil/arms/"reconstruction" corporations that benefit from the new resource wars and make huge private profits from war funded by the public purse (for whatever BS reasons, but not for "defending" us).
Just don't anybody make me feel guilty and shamed into giving money(wearing a poppy) once a year -not to pay for the hardware of the conflict?- but for the human/emotionally damaged financial burdens and consequences of the conflict?(as in maimed youngsters)
Is that it? Same thing to me?

As ever charity in this sense should not be needed, and if you all believe so strongly that doing the right thing is by wearing a poppy to help the casualties of war, then stop fannying about and lobby your mp to treat these people fairly and stop discarding them when the war is "over" or they have no more use because they're disabled?

 

[Alarm]

My friends and I do lobby for better treatment of not only the injured but those serving.
Having many friends currently serving in all of the forces and one of my children wanting to join as an Officer I have a pretty good idea and one that far surpasses your knowledge in all likelihood.

You feel guilty or not as you see fit, your the one ramming opinions down peoples throats.
If you cannot spare a quid, or a few hours one day a year then dont get uppity because others do and also far more than you can imagine.

Your entitled to an opinion just like we all are. Have a think about that and how it has become that way.

 

[ABCwarrior]

My Dad was in REME for 15 years( we lived in Ireland late 60's and West Germany when the Baader Meinhof were most active), was in Libya when Gadaffi took over, he then did two tours in the early 70's back in Ireland, as did his brother in the same regiment. Both grandfathers were in the war(WWII) one a soldier the other a merchant seaman.
Seeing the damage done to them all in various ways, especially psychologically(dad foolishly volunteered for Porton Down and mum says he was just not the same man who came back...) is why I get so incensed that our successive governments get away with ruining so many lives and don't have the decency to pick up the pieces.

Think that qualifies me to have an opinion?

Alarm, I wish your child all the best should they enlist, but I'd be trying my hardest to steer them towards something else that doesn't involve invading and subjugating third world countries in the name of "democracy and freedom", neither term is synonymous...Resource wars are only going to intensify as the century proceeds.

 

[zanwan]

I find it appalling that people need to buy Poppies to help raise money for charities which help veterans of war. I think it is disgraceful that the government is NOT providing huge sums of money to chairties which support the troops, and instead is leaving it down to individuals with collection tins standing outside supermarkets, raising pennies for those that fought and died for their nation.

The government sent these men to fight in these wars and its the government who should help them once they return. Instead these soldiers, who were fed a lie who were sent to fight for unjust reasons for the interests of large oil and arms companies, are left to fend for themselves once they return. Sure they get their feel good military parade, and the pat on the back from the government and your average joe clapping from the sidestreet, but then? what then? these men are often emotionally traumatised, many of their relationships breakdown, many have commit suicide, many are emotionally scarred by what they have been through. But they are left to deal with in on their own. And then, every once in a while we get the press and media make a few pointless gestures, maybe a pointless award ceremony etc with the public feeling good about themselves because they clapped a soldier who went to war, had his limbs blown off, is now crippled and emotionally scarred for life.

Is this how a modern state treats its volunteer soldiers? and then you people have the sheer nerve and audacity to rant against those who are speaking out against these pointless barbaric wars?

If these pointless wars were not fought in the first place, all this heartache and tragedy which has affected thousands of families here in the UK would have been avoided.

Just remember, all those troops who died in Iraq and Afghanistan have died in vein. Iraq is a mess, and the Taliban still control vast parts of Afghanistan. The wars have achieved nothing. They have only brought death, destruction, misery and mayhem to the lives of many people. And the worst thing is the consequences wont last for years or decades, they are irreversible. You have created generations of new extremists who will use these wars as an excuse and rallying call for terrorism. Look at the middle east, only 7 years after the brutal Iraq war, western puppet regimes are now being overthrown and replaced with what? Pro-western friendly governments? No. They are being replaced with fundamentalist militant regimes whose ideologies are fundamentally opposed to those of the west. And the west has nobody but themselves to blame for this.

 

[joinerjohn]

Had our armed forces not fought (and died in 2 world wars) , I doubt very much whether you'd be free to voice that opinion Naz. As I've said before the poppy is about remembrance and respect. When the idea of the poppy was first introduced, you have to realise that the world had just finished the first world war and most countries were generally broke. The Great War cost not only lives but money too (vast amounts). The fact that we have moved on from those times and money is raised by the British Legion to help All ex-servicemen and women (not just the disabled and infirm), doesn't give you any right to now blame the present (or any previous) government for the treatment of ex-service personnel. The British Legion is now supporting more soldiers who fought in the second world war than, it does supporting recent casualties. Many, not even injured in the second world war are now in their old age and their needs change. I applaud the efforts of the British Legion, for all they do.
We have a social and moral responsibility for these old soldiers to ensure they continue to live their lives with dignity and pride. Had they not fought, I'm sure the world would be a worse place than it is today.

 

[Susiejb]

Had our armed forces not fought (and died in 2 world wars) ,
We have a social and moral responsibility for these old soldiers to ensure they continue to live their lives with dignity and pride. Had they not fought, I'm sure the world would be a worse place than it is today.

I fully agree with your comment JJ but I also think that INaz also has a valid point too. It is strange that in our so called 'civilized society' we are still behaving as we have since time began and are still fighting one another.
Were we to be invaded by someone from outer space I am sure that they would find our method of solving disputes most extraordinary.
War on the whole causes destruction, devastation and death, it shows little regard for the value of human life and unfortunately it often solves absolutely nothing at all.

 

[Alarm]

1, Its human nature to fight and or defend/assist.
2, It has been known to solve issues.

Naz has made no fruitful contribution IMHO.
Especially as he has chosen to live here.

 

[joinerjohn]

I fully agree with your comment JJ but I also think that INaz also has a valid point too. It is

I Naz's point is flawed though Susie. He maintains that the poppy is a symbol of the glorification war. It is not. It was chosen as a symbol of remembrance. It does not glorify war. He says it's used to support our troops abroad. It isn't. It's used to raise funds for all ex servicemen and women, who may have fallen on hard times, not just injured soldiers. One RBL branch near me has helped many OAP ex servicemen and women who struggle to survive on the pitiful allowance called the Old Age Pension. It's fully the responsibility of the Royal British Legion to allocate monies raised in any way they see fit to help ex service personnel. The Royal British Legion is a non political organisation. Ex servicemen are entitled to join the Royal British Legion, no matter what their personal political alliance, whether they support Labour, Conservative, Liberal or even the Monster Raving Loony party.
The Royal British Legion neither glorifies war, nor condones it. They exist as a charitable institution. And yet some seem to think otherwise, simply because of their association with Papaver rhoeas.

Here's some examples of the work they actually do.
http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/can-we-help

Surely a noble and worthy cause The Poppy.

 

[Susiejb]

JJ Please don't misunderstand my posting...I fully one hundred percent support the British Legion.

I was simply referring to INaz comments that often war is completely futile, and that is all.

 

[ABCwarrior]

They're all good valid points folks, I think what we all agree on is that the OAP veterans should be treated better and many are finding it tough, with heat or eat being a common slogan. But drop the word veteran from it and we should be doing this for all OAP's, not just ones who were in the 3 main forces. Just remember it was an EFFORT by the whole country- many civilians, especially women, were maimed and killed in munitions manufacture- what of the miners, steel workers, foresters, fishermen, merchant seamen etc killed and injured while doing their bit to keep the country from collapsing. These are the forgotten ones unfortunately.

Bit of a moot point, but it's also worth remembering that the wars of the last decade aren't unique, it was us who declared war on Germany in BOTH world wars....