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Theresa May's Brexit talks with the Labour Party are a "grave mistake"

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by festive, 12 May 2019.

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  1. festive

    festive

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    Pass the brain cell back you're wearing it the wrong way round and get back to bed! :LOL:
     
  2. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    I'm not missing any point.

    You seem to want to get away with ignoring the point that you made a number of statements which raise questions.

    You kept asking for the next question for you to deal with. You even said at one point that it was fun.

    So come on then - loads of next questions here, and therefore loads of fun for you in answering them. Really answering, I mean, not pretending you can ignore them away by saying I'm missing the point.


    Would you be quite happy with the situation where a leave deal was agreed, and then a future administration could just come along and change it?

    Do think that it is OK for MPs to vote against the proposed deal if there are valid reasons to do so?

    If you do think that it is OK for MPs to vote against the proposed deal if there are valid reasons to do so, who do you think should be the arbiter of whether they are right in thinking that the reasons are valid?

    You asked "Which majority party is blocking the brexit process currently, tell me. Go on... i am waiting."

    Well the majority party, when you include the votes it bought on this specific issue, is the Conservative and Unionist party. Did you not know that?

    You said "The 'deal' unless i am mistaken is the one the EU has offered us? I don't think it's the other way round. I stand to be corrected."

    It isn't the deal they offered us it is the deal which we negotiated with them. Did you not know that?

    Is it wrong for Labour to oppose if they have valid reasons? Or is it only Re-smog who is allowed to vote against it for valid reasons?


    You complain that Brexit is being blocked by the opposition, but how can the opposition block legislation when the governing party has an absolute majority? You do know that they have a majority?


    You said you don't believe currently what May is doing is right and you don't agree with the Tory Brexit strategy.

    But then you say that MPs who feel the same as you, who also don't believe that what she is doing is right and don't agree with the Tory Brexit strategy must vote in favour of what she is doing, and her strategy? Are you able to explain the logic there? You do think it's logical, don't you?


    You said you aren't defending May, and don't think she should ever of (sic) been elected to negotiate our exit. But you voted for her to do just that. Are you able to explain the logic there?


    You admit that I don't have the expertise to understand the real-world practical implications of leaving, but when those who do have the expertise look at the implications and find them so utterly horrific that they oppose it you aren't happy.

    Or is it that you aren't happy unless it's Re-smog who opposes it for valid reasons?


    Are you still finding this fun?
     
  3. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    Aww, bless.

    Transam still trying to play with the grownups.

    I don't suppose it would do any good to point out that every post of mine was in direct response to one(s) of Festive's would it? Or that his posts I was replying to were 4 times as long as my replies?

    Would it do any good to ask why you're happy to read 1258 words from Festive without complaint, but dismiss 325 from me as "long winded war and peace long posts blimey u end up losing the will to live"?
     
  4. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    Festive - you suddenly seem to be less keen on questions being answered than you were before, and much more in favour of taking the "can't answer or wont respond" position.

    Why is that, I wonder?
     
  5. noseall

    noseall

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    It's only fun when he's got his smug hat on.
     
  6. transam

    transam

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    Yes pretty much sums it up :cool:
     
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  7. festive

    festive

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    Now i have your attention ;)

    As this place isn't 'my life' sorry bud i'm not going to multi quote every line just for you to continue to dissect until

    A) You are dissecting the construction of my font down to pixel level.
    B) Ive bored myself void of excrement trying to read it all.

    At times you and a few others on here romp onto threads like overgrown kids, you jump on a thread and attempt to suck up all the air in the room. Its a common trait and i am surprised the ops don't kick you off GD even temporarily its the constant condescending attitude which actually brings me here as i don't like people being spoke to like you do to people its not just you.

    Anyway i digress.

    Alot of your questions don't make sense either not cherry picking to score some personal gain here. (and no i won't point out the grammatical etc errors)

    "Would you be quite happy with the situation where a leave deal was agreed, and then a future administration could just come along and change it?"

    If i was Corbyn i would nail what we agreed to the gallows of the HOC's for all to see, and make it clear any future leadership change must commit or face the public to explain why the other parties would no longer support the modified leave deal. These are politicians here, and whilst i get it they don't trust eachother it's also convenient to use this as an excuse just to continue to block and delay progress. And this was my original point, im too cynical to believe either side in their excuses. And i still believe Corbyn is fkin useless and wants to just bury the tories in this mess until GE time.

    "Do think that it is OK for MPs to vote against the proposed deal if there are valid reasons to do so?"

    Absolutely i do. Now you answer me. Do you honestly believe Labour being the opposition and how they voted in Mv1/2 are voting for the good of their constituents/country or just to spite the opposition, to detract any glory from them? Apart from i think 4, Labour are polarized in opposing tories or the actual deal?
    As i said before and pointed out myself at least some tories have rebelled for reasons i agree which is the May 'deal' is sh1t and we deserve better. However, some of them Tories could be staunch remainers or getting backhanders from other powers to continue to block for other ulterior motives, dont trust any of em. Thats why we dont agree, i find your thoughts utterly blinkered and unwilling to look at the bigger picture.. biased, but that's diversity for you, which i guess just how different we perceive things.

    Ok one more then i need my cup of horlicks....


    "You said you aren't defending May, and don't think she should ever of (sic) been elected to negotiate our exit. But you voted for her to do just that. Are you able to explain the logic there?"

    WTF?
    BAS are you ok? This is another example where you address me as a tory MP, i am jo public remember.. We of course had no say in electing May to lead. You know that so why ask a stupid question? Come on mate sort it out.

    OK one more..

    "It isn't the deal they offered us it is the deal which we negotiated with them. Did you not know that?"
    Again i am of course fully aware but. Juncker and his posse have already pointed out this 'deal' is not negotiable. What does that tell you? I dont believe much of the deal was what May negotiated, i believe alot was flung at her to take or leave hence Dominic Raab seeing the **** state and resigning over it. Of course not wanting to put his name to it. They were never going to give much were they? I know that you know that. So i still believe

    A) Its not a deal more of akin to a divorce proceeding
    B) The EU just can't afford anyone else to leave.

    My whole point in my original post is the scepticism i have in both sides. May is a dick to even consider talking to Corbyn 'the opposition' and expect it to end well. I stand by that.
    At the same time i believe this process is unique and all MPs should be dropping their weapons for the time being to try and work sh1t out. Which isn't happening.
     
  8. EFLImpudence

    EFLImpudence

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    Festive:

    You don't seem to understand that most MPs - about three quarters, including nearly ALL Labour MPs - thought before the referendum that leaving the EU was a bad idea.

    So why would or how can they now think differently just because less than half of their constituents, on average, voted to leave?

    Therefore why would or should they vote for any leave deal?

    Parliament is sovereign and taking control; just what the leavers wanted.
     
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  9. Brigadier

    Brigadier

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    Why then, did they not wholeheartedly quash the Leave vote anyway, and not start us on this (three years, and counting), farce?
     
  10. Notch7

    Notch7

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    What do you think about the staunch leavers that voted against the deal? IE the ERG.
     
  11. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    If that isn't a pathetic attempt to avoid having to face up to the very real issues which stem directly from your posts, I don't know what is.


    You have posted 51 times in this thread. I have posted 18 times, including this one. So at the time you wrote that complaint, you'd posted 3 times as often as I.

    Regarding the posts of yours to which I responded, they totalled 1258 words, not including quotes, and my responses totalled 325 words.

    I guess one of the differences in how we perceive things is whether 51 posts suck up more or less air than 17, or 1258 words more or less than 325.


    In the interests of minimising evacuation, shall we summarise your 116 word answer to my "Would you be happy..." question with a 1-word one, "No"?


    Actually, I do honestly believe that they were voting for the good of their constituents and country.


    Given that the vast majority of Labour MPs voted for triggering the Article 50 process (and that you can't know how many opposed it because they thought more preparatory work should be done first), and that at the subsequent GE the Labour Party manifesto committed to honouring the referendum, why are you so determined to deny the possibility that Labour MPs now voting against the withdrawal agreement also agree with you that "the May 'deal' is sh1t and we deserve better"?

    It still seems that you are quite happy for Tory rebels to vote against what you think is a sh¡t deal, and not acknowledge that at least some of them might be doing so to bring down Theresa May for their own personal benefit, and at the same time are determined to portray Labour opposition to it as entirely for party political benefit reasons and not because they think it is a sh¡t deal.

    Why is that?

    Could it be, perhaps, that because you believe "Corbyn is fkin useless", and because you are a Tory voter, that you flatly refuse to accept that he is being truthful? How many times has he said that the referendum must be honoured but not via a deal which is (paraphrasing) sh¡t?

    Could it be, perhaps, that "i find your thoughts utterly blinkered and unwilling to look at the bigger picture.. biased" applies to you?


    Surely not even you can really believe that you can re-write history like that?

    See if you can answer these questions:

    Who was leader of the Tory party at the time of the last general election in which you voted for the Tories?
    Who did you vote to become Prime Minister?


    It tells me that, like any deal, once all the parties have agreed it, and it's written up in its final form, and all the parties have certified their approval of it, it is done, and not up for renegotiation.

    Ask yourself how would you, or MPs, or members of the public react if the deal had been approved by Parliament, and things were trundling along, but hadn't got to the stage of signing an international treaty, if "Junker and his posse" had said "Actually, hang on, we've changed our minds, we want to reopen it and make alterations". And see if you can do so honestly.


    One Prime Minister.

    Two Secretaries of State.

    Do you really think that it is entirely a case of utter incompetence by very senior politicians, and not that there simply was never, ever, going to be a way that anybody could have negotiated a good way to leave the EU after they'd started the 2-year timer ticking and before they'd decided where they wanted to be after leaving?


    Reversing that is equally valid regarding JC talking to TM and expecting it to end well.

    But bear in mind that Labour were saying let's discuss this on a cross-party basis long before she agreed to, that she only agreed to after, thanks to all the MPs on her "side" who considered her deal such sh1t and that we deserve better, she was left with no alternative, and that some of her MPs are saying that she must not make any compromises in these talks.


    To use a very apposite saying, given your characterisation of the deal, it isn't happening because no matter how hard you try you cannot polish a turd.
     
  12. Brigadier

    Brigadier

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    If I recall correctly, you can polish a turd...

     
  13. festive

    festive

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    OK about here (actually earlier) i decided this chap has issues, you're either having a bad day/life or just not getting any. Either way you need to step away from the forums, this is a classic example of someone losing grip on reality. Unless you are actually a windup! Maybe you are not very mobile now and rely on these forums for all your outside communications? I don't know. You're a very frustrated person. Look at your opening statement :D crikey my wife on a bad day isn't that bad (he says checking over his shoulder).

    Tedious quoting my own quotes i did say that already i think Tories who are rebelling could be for many reasons, check back i think it's that 506th word i typed you loser ;) Something along the lines of:

    "some of them Tories could be staunch remainers or getting backhanders from other powers to continue to block for other ulterior motives"

    Now am i clear?


    This is what i mean you seem to read stuff suck it up, process it through that twisted perception and deduce X(when it's Y).

    Are you a Labour/Corbyn fan per chance? Answer please.
    And yes imho he's unbelievably sh't he's almost as crap as Ed Milliband cheese face (Had they gone for his brother David it would be a different story today)
    Dont get upset but they're all full of sh't and willing to fck many over for victory. He's at the top of his game remember. Dont be so blinkered ffs.


    BAS - you're not getting it are you? We as electorates only have the power to vote a party in not the leader. I think youll find alot of Labour supporters still support Labour and vote for them but dont particularly want Corbyn in power. Now... let go of the the bone, good lad.




    I stand my by previous opinion, anyone thinking or believing the EU would let us (UK) walk away with a dream 'divorce deal' is mistaken, it could trigger the end of the EU. But there are a number of factors here, especially who's doing the negotiating, a fekkin weak remainer!! See my previous quote on why i think May should not be our negotiator but i had no choice!

    Blinkered BAS - <cough> Corbyn <cough> wont talk with no deal on the table <cough>


    Which brings me back to another fking beyond Moronic bane of my life decision.

    Removing no deal (which has only ever been in reality some form or bargain tool until the idiots got hold of it)

    Who ever says i want to do a deal but im not leaving without a deal? WTF?

    I walk up to a salesman and say hey i like that 30k car i want it, what sort of deal you going to offer, just to let you know i am not allowed to leave without it (ie no deal).
    Ok says the salesman..that will be 30k. Boom.


    I agree you can't polish a turd(or sprinkle with glitter) but you can leave it for a while to make great fertiliser for new growth ;)

    Just to add

    Oh and by the way Just to add 're the BBC link "
    Labour-Tory Brexit talks end without deal"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48304867

    look at the top two voted comments backing what I say so you're in the minority BAS it seems. Both back my points made here. So...i guess we're all wrong. :D


    [​IMG]

    Oh and the excuses

    Tories - They reckon Queer Brownstar wont proceed without stamping a 2nd referendum on any decision which has been warned from the outset any talks must not have this dependency attached. So what was the point apart from delaying it more and attempting to just dump a festering pile back on the Tories to smell even more. GE GE GE GE!!!!

    Labour - May too weak to push her party into agreeing on their customs union preference. (which is a **** idea too and most probably true she's too weak)

    Both sides potentially telling truth and both **** options!
     
    Last edited: 17 May 2019 at 2:12 PM
  14. festive

    festive

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    .
     
    Last edited: 17 May 2019 at 2:02 PM
  15. Mfatic

    Mfatic

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    Festive, the comments section is being added to all the time. The top two comments when you last looked could well be several pages down by the time anyone else looks.
    And they are comments added by readers, some of whom might have perverted ideas.
     
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