Underground electric gate motor control advice ?

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Hey guys im looking for some advice

im looking at a pair of second hand underground electric gate motors

and what im wanting to do is control these motors using a control box from a old roller shutter door that i have i would like to ask if this is possible and if so can anyone give me any advice
 
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I'm guessing there are regulations for electric gates, and that you have a duty of care to people using the gates, and that lashing a panel from a roller shutter door onto the gates without the appropriate safety devices and design doesn't quite meet those requirements.

I've no doubt I could get the motors running but getting them to safely operate an electric gate is a different thing.

In fact, gates in private domestic residences must meet the requirements of Suppy of Machinery regs, which means you must carry out a risk assessment as a starter, and then implement the outcome in the design of your safety controls.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/work-equipment-machinery/powered-gates/safety.htm
 
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Hi there this is on private land and i will.be the only one using the gates

I have wired in the 4 cables black brown blue and earth to the terminals that the roller shutter ran to but when i activate the board all i get is a hum from the mortor and alot of heat...

Do you think this is a fault from the mortor or that the roller shutter board is no good to power the mortor

I checked what the power was that was being gave out from the board and it was 230v which is what the mortor is
 
It doesn't matter if it is on private land or if you are the only intended user

The rescue services or any person may be injured by a poor installation and you'd be liable
 
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Is this the only advice ever given on.this forum...

Who said i wasnt going to fit faac beam eyes

It seems most people here need to get a job for the health and safty...
 
They probably need start up capacitors ( normally in the controller) ....what make are the motors ?
 
Is this the only advice ever given on.this forum...
Hopefully.


Who said i wasnt going to fit faac beam eyes
And detectors that will detect if someone is caught and to make the motors reverse? And a quick-release system so that the people can do something to release the gates? Do you have the right equipment to test that the crushing force is sufficiently low that it will not kill a child?


It seems most people here need to get a job for the health and safty...
And it seems that you need to grow a sense of responsibility and an acceptance that the law does apply to you and that electric gates are dangerous machines. which can only be fitted by specialists who know what the requirements are and how to satisfy them.

Read the link that Simon posted.

Read these:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/safetybulletins/electricgates.htm
http://www.hse.gov.uk/safetybulletins/electricgates2.htm

Be told that installing electric gates is NOT a DIY job, and that a system cobbled together from a mix of second-hand components not designed to work together, some of which are not meant for electric gates, is a stupid idea.
 
They probably need start up capacitors ( normally in the controller) ....what make are the motors ?

Hi mate they are ditec motors i presume i would need i total diffrent board as the board for the roller shutter has no way of setting any limits as the limit setting on the roller shutter is done on the mortor its self
 
I am not putting these on large steel.gate there going on very thin wood panel gates it just to close off a area of land there is no way anyone is gonna get crushed and killed by this setup.... and i have never said that im.not gonna fit any sort of safty setup ive just ask why are the motors not powering up just humming
 
ive just ask why are the motors not powering up just humming

Probably because ( if I read you right ) you are trying to power a motor in an under ground gate operator from a controller designed to drive a roller shutter motor.

Roller shutter motors are very different both mechanically and electrically from the motors used in under ground gate operators. Hence the controller for a roller shutter motor cannot be used to control the motor in an under ground gate operator.
 
Ok thats fair enough i just though if the control unit was giving out 230v then it would at the least make the motor turn but i suspect the underground mortors need the
capacitors that the roller shutter control but does not have
 
To get a motor to reverse there are a host of methods used, it could be a separate field and armature winding, it could be a capacitor, but for garage doors it's common to use 12 or 24 volt motors and battery back-up so you can still open the door should the power fail.

My father-in-law had garage doors professionally fitted, however the only manual control is a button over 6 foot high in garage which can open or close the doors, the main controls are wireless, he had one in car and one in the hallway of house, the door was completely out of sight when closing, OK it would stop if the rubber buffer hit something, and an adult could open it from inside. But be it a cat or a child if they wandered in unseen then they could be trapped for days.

It is not the only dangerous electric item, mother had a stair lift fitted by council, the stair lift super safe, but it had an arm which needed extending before use, again out of sight, so could crush.

So even when done by a professional they can get it wrong, even big specialise firms get it wrong. In cases where it has gone wrong, it's not covered by insurance, in the case of Semelia Campbell think firm fined £50,000 plus any compensation the latter may be covered by insurance.

For me it was a massive problem, I used books to guide me, and employed a safety officer to over see the work, the problem is some times the safety device makes it worse not better, I remember the mad dash to find some thing to stop a part falling when the safety switch cut off the air that held it up. After that we had two air systems one was never cut by the E-stop.

What I am saying it is very easy to make a mistake. But also I do see if you really want to do it, then better to help you do it safely than simply say leave it alone.

So first requirement is a brake, so when you energise the motor the brake is released, second you must be able to reverse it, and third you must be able to manually operate it, to do the latter there needs to be a safe way to release the brake, this is a major problem, the normal method is to use a worm drive, this will normally stop a run away when brake is released, and a handle which can be put on the end of the motor drive shaft.

However the brake is normally spring activated, no power brake is on, so most use battery powered motors and brakes so even with a power cut, there is battery power to release the brake. Even a gate needs something to stop wind moving the gate.

So in the main 4 wires at least, it may be polarity is swapped on two to open and close, and other two work brake, or it can be common, open, close and brake. The latter common with AC motors which normally have a release leaver which will also release brake.

I had one three phase motor with 6 wires, earth and three phases, and a 24 volt supply DC which had a signal on that as well called ASCii which connected to a PLC the motor could have the speed, and direction together with brake all controlled by those two 24 volt wires which also told the PLC where the arm driven by the motor was. One can't simply count the wires and say this is how it must work.

We see today even cars where rear lights have just 2 wires for the lot, real pain to wire a trailer up. Maybe with pictures or old instructions for the motors one may work out how they work, but it will not be easy.
 
giving out 230v then it would at the least make the motor turn

The motors will have at least two windings. One winding has to be out of phase with the other to create a rotating magnetic field to cause the rotor to rotate. Putting a capacitor in series with one winding while the other winding is connected directly to the supply will create that phase difference and hence the necessary rotating magnetic field.

The capacitor can be in the motor or on the control board.

When the capacitor is in the motor there will be three wires, Neutral, Live for UP and Live for Down. To move the notor Neutral and only ONE of the Lives are needed. Connect both Lives at the same time to Live and the motor will not rotate. Provided there are limit switches in the motor this is the simplest method as the controller is little more than two switches

When the limit switches have to be external and not built into the motor then the capacitor will be on the controller with more complex switching. Again three wires from the motor to the controller. One wire is Neutral. The other two are Live direct and Live via capacitor. Direction of rotation is set by which is Live Direct and which is Live via capacitor.

The effective circuit of two windings and one capacitor is the same for both methods.

Reversing by phase change.jpg
 

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