Unseasoned Oak and using it for indoor projects

[happyhero]

Hi, Can anyone advise me? I want to make an oak table and I want to put a 3.5 meter oak beam across the ceiling with 2 uprights holding it up all out of the same wood so it all matches, a bit like getting curtains that match your bedspread etc.

Seasoned oak is so unbelievably expensive and out of my financial reach whereas I have found a wood yard that can supply sleepers in different woods, new and old, treated and untreated and this is a much cheaper way to get oak even with paying for cutting.

I want to try and get as near as I can to the American Light Oak you sometimes see. The closest match they have appears to be a new Oak called New French Oak and it comes unseasoned.

I have been told that unseasoned oak may split or twist. I am after a very clean square look and definitely not the old battered oak look you get in pubs. I don't mind splits as I think they will add some character and can be filled but I don't really want to go to all the trouble of putting a huge beam on the ceiling, nice and square, only for it to twist badly.

Someone from the woodyard said that people just take chances when they want to do any work with Oak indoors and that it does not twist so much as softwood being such a hard hardwood.

Is this true or can I expect it to split and twist a fair bit. I appreciate no one can predict what it will do but has anyone tried this and had any luck and successfully made a indoor table etc?

Or can any carpenters tell me if this is a total NO NO and should it be avoided.

Any info appreciated

 

[Jasonb]

What is the span of the beam and what sort of section do you want 6x6", 6x4" etc.

There are ways around the movement issue, solid beams can be hollow bored or cut to a "U" shape. Another option is to make a fake beam buy joining 3 flat boards into a "U" shape, joined correctly you won't see the joint.

Kiln dried english or french oak upto 4" thick will not move and won't look a lot darker than AWO but will cost about 3 times as much as sawn green oak. A lot of the french stuff is not as green (wet) as fresh sawn english oak so you will probably not get toom much twisting if you pick timber without any significant knotts. Air dried oak will have a slightly higher moisture content but will be priced somewhere between the two, thats what I used for these

I would be more worried about the table moving than the beam as the table top will be thinner it will dry quicker and the risk of splits/cupping will be much higher unless you are thinking of the chunky look

Jason

 

[RigidRaider]

There's been a lot on TV recently about building with green oak. I suppose the building systems used will make allowance for a certain amount of movement as the wood dries out. I'm no expert but I'd imagine that a nice straight-grained piece will dry straighter than something cut from a twisted part of the tree. Presumably long straight pieces of oak come from outside Britain because our trees are all knarled and bent.

I don't think I'd want to use unseasoned wood to build furniture though.

Interestingly we recently came across a place in the Forest of Bowland near Lancaster where all the massive American cedar beams out of the demolished Lancashire cotton mills have ended up. You approach this farm along a half mile track, which is lined on both sides with piles of timber, some rotting and some in good condition, some pieces a couple of feet thick. The bloke just picks up a chainsaw and hacks off a piece to the size you want - we got two mantles for a tenner!

 

[happyhero]

What is the span of the beam and what sort of section do you want 6x6", 6x4" etc.

There are ways around the movement issue, solid beams can be hollow bored or cut to a "U" shape. Another option is to make a fake beam buy joining 3 flat boards into a "U" shape, joined correctly you won't see the joint.

Kiln dried english or french oak upto 4" thick will not move and won't look a lot darker than AWO but will cost about 3 times as much as sawn green oak. A lot of the french stuff is not as green (wet) as fresh sawn english oak so you will probably not get toom much twisting if you pick timber without any significant knotts. Air dried oak will have a slightly higher moisture content but will be priced somewhere between the two, thats what I used for these

I would be more worried about the table moving than the beam as the table top will be thinner it will dry quicker and the risk of splits/cupping will be much higher unless you are thinking of the chunky look

Jason

Cheers jasonb, very helpful. the beam across the ceiling I would like would be 3.5m long and 250mm x 150mm with a 2.4m upright at each end holding it up which would be 200mm x 100mm. I know I could hollow it out but for the moment I am thinking solid. Do you think it could still twist even if it is that thick?

I like what you did by the way, very impressive.

I am thinking of sticking with the unseasoned due to cost mainly. One place has given me this price for 150mm x 250mm x 2.4m x2 and 150mm x 250mm x 3.5m x1 for air dried oak , £600 + vat + delivery. That would hurt, and doesn't even include anything to make the table. Are there not places that you can take the timber to that will charge you a fee for kiln drying?

As for the table I was thinking 2.1m long x 1m wide and 6.5cm thick with legs fairly similar to your picture except longer because it would be a dining table.

I must admit I am becoming a little disillusioned here as I really want to build this stuff in Oak but it is just running into too much money with getting it dried and I am worried what will happen if I used unseasoned given time.

Oh dear what shall I do?

 

[happyhero]

There's been a lot on TV recently about building with green oak. I suppose the building systems used will make allowance for a certain amount of movement as the wood dries out. I'm no expert but I'd imagine that a nice straight-grained piece will dry straighter than something cut from a twisted part of the tree. Presumably long straight pieces of oak come from outside Britain because our trees are all knarled and bent.

I don't think I'd want to use unseasoned wood to build furniture though.

Interestingly we recently came across a place in the Forest of Bowland near Lancaster where all the massive American cedar beams out of the demolished Lancashire cotton mills have ended up. You approach this farm along a half mile track, which is lined on both sides with piles of timber, some rotting and some in good condition, some pieces a couple of feet thick. The bloke just picks up a chainsaw and hacks off a piece to the size you want - we got two mantles for a tenner!

cheers for the info RigidRaider, you almost make me want to make that journey to have a look, but it is a long way for me as I live in Surrey. But what kind of wood is American ceder anyway? Do you think he would have loads for a while if I ever dared make the trip? Also would there be some long ones ie 3.5m?

 

[RigidRaider]

I think - and somebody will be along soon to correct me - American cedar and Canadian cedar are also known as Red cedar. This wood has a reddish-orange colour, I believe it was sometimes used to make church pews. A lot was imported for the roof beams in cotton mills because of its straightness and strength. And yes, some of the pieces will exceed 3.5 metres. Some pals of ours got some long joists from him for a farmhouse restoration.

Seems I'm nearly right! - just found this: http://www.arcwoodandtimbers.com/products/index.php The site also mentions light weight, stability and resistance to decay.

Oh, and he certainly has enough - there must be thousands of tons in his fields.

 

[happyhero]

forgive my ignorance here but is ceder not just pine, red ceder being of a higher quality or have I got it totally wrong?

 

[RigidRaider]

Cedar and pine are not the same species. I think cedar might well be slower-growing than pine.

In terms of the business where I work, we get cedarwood oil from cedars and pine oil from pines - very different in odour!

Have a look here: http://www.foe.co.uk/campaigns/biodiversity/resource/good_wood_guide/wood_timber_types_a_to_g.html

 

[Jasonb]

I wouldn't use cedar for a table top, although it is a hardwood it will easily dent as it's quite soft, you can easily push your finger nail into it.

Having oak kilned in those thicknesses and small quantities will be very expensive. Ideally all the wood in the kiln needs to be approx the same thickness so it can be dried at the same rate so you will be paying to heat an almost empty kiln.

I would go for green timber for the beams, you will need to have this planed as it comes with a sawn surface, should cost about £200 plus planing cost

Then use kiln dried for the table, particularly the top as it will move all over the place at that size if its not dry

I get my oak from here worth giving them a call if you live on my side of Surrey.

Also have you thought how you are going to lift the beam which will be well over 100kg. Heavier than the largest post in this Deck which I had to use a mini digger to ligt the posts & beamd into place

Jason

 

[happyhero]

Cheers Jasonb, a couple of questions from what you have told me, where in Surrey is that place, it does not say on their site and secondly you mentioned earlier about joining flat boards to make a fake beam, how would you conceal the join and how thick would these pieces have to be

 

[Jasonb]

I'm right on the Kent/Surrey border and Scott's are in fact just into kent, just down the road from Heaver Castle near Edenbridge in Kent hence the "Heaver Beaver" logo.

Hiding the joint depends a lot of good timber selection to match the grain as well as possible. Joints will depend on what tools/machines you have from a simple butt joint with glue blocks or biscuits for reinforcenment, A mitre joint with biscuits but at that size you will need a spindle moulder to cut the mitre, a rebate glued & clamped up well will show less of the edge grain.

Jason