What boiler is best for the job

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I'm just about to start thinking about the central heating system in my renovation.

I have a loft so not wanting to have any cold water storage tanks I had thought about using.

210l Santon Premier Plus Systemfit Indirect Unvented hot water cylinder and a Valiant ecoTec plus 630 system boiler.

My builder has told me I don't need a system boiler with the Santon cylinder as the cylinder includes everything. He told me I need a heat only boiler such as the ecoTec plus 428.

What advice would you give me on the best boiler for the job and would there be any advantage using a system boiler over a heat only boiler?

Thanks
 
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210l Santon Premier Plus Systemfit Indirect Unvented hot water cylinder and a Valiant ecoTec plus 630 system boiler.

My builder has told me I don't need a system boiler with the Santon cylinder as the cylinder includes everything. He told me I need a heat only boiler such as the ecoTec plus 428.

What advice would you give me


For a start I would tell your builder to shut his cake hole and stick to throwing cement at bricks. Flicking idiot. :rolleyes: (the builder that is).
 
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I'm just about to start thinking about the central heating system in my renovation.

I have a loft so not wanting to have any cold water storage tanks I had thought about using.

210l Santon Premier Plus Systemfit Indirect Unvented hot water cylinder and a Valiant ecoTec plus 630 system boiler.

My builder has told me I don't need a system boiler with the Santon cylinder as the cylinder includes everything. He told me I need a heat only boiler such as the ecoTec plus 428.

What advice would you give me on the best boiler for the job and would there be any advantage using a system boiler over a heat only boiler?

Thanks

I hate that genetic term 'Builder'. You don't have a Builder dear boy, you have a Main Contractor. With his poor advice thus far, I do hope you have a written Contract with your 'Builder', cause he sounds a right Muppet!!
 
Thanks for the replies.

So are you saying that my original idea of using the system boiler is a better choice?
 
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Always deal direct with the heating installer....builders are notorious for subbing the work out to the cheapest contractor and then not paying them. You can also end up with a carp system.

You need to ensure you have sufficient water pressure and flowrate if you are going down the unvented cylinder route. Also consider fitting flow limiters to all outlets.

The SystemFit cylinder option is a good deal if you compare buying the standard unvented and adding the extra parts, provided the package includes quality components such as the RWC bypass, Honeywell zone valves, Grundfos pump, Danfoss controls etc.

Your builder is correct....the cylinder is designed to operate with a heat only boiler and just requires the addition of a safety valve.

However, if your system has been calculated to require a 28/30 Kw boiler then it's possible the supplied expansion vessel would be of insufficient size so you would require an additional vessel. Vaillant boilers (and many other manufacturers models) have considerable resistance through their heat exchangers. Again it's quite possible that the supplied pump will be insufficient. The unit appears to come with a Danfoss TP9000 programable thermostat/DHW clock...are you happy with that?


A system boiler contains an expansion vessel, safety valve and pump. They would be used with a standard unvented cylinder but you would need to add the zone valves for the heating system. Some manufacturers eg. Worcester allow you to add their diverter kit to the boiler to save external valves. Also note than many system boilers have insufficiently sized vessels and pumps so again additional vessels and pumps may need to be added.

IMHO the larger output system boilers are pointless for that reason. I also prefer to have the vessel, safety valve, pump, gauge separate from the boiler....you are not tied to the manufacturers own parts and availability when they fail and they can be sized correctly.

My preference for a boiler either heat only or system would be the Worcester CDi Classic models...based on previous reliabilty, lack of any issues, easy parts availability, excellent manufacturer backup.

I would also question the size of boiler mentioned. A Victorian terrace house unless 3 storeys would surely suffice with a much smaller boiler. It is also possible the hot water could be setup as a priority system allowing say 20 Kw for quick reheating of the cylinder. Then 20Kw or a little more may be sufficent for the heating too leading to a more efficient system.
 
Always deal direct with the heating installer....builders are notorious for subbing the work out to the cheapest contractor and then not paying them. You can also end up with a carp system.

You need to ensure you have sufficient water pressure and flowrate if you are going down the unvented cylinder route. Also consider fitting flow limiters to all outlets.

The SystemFit cylinder option is a good deal if you compare buying the standard unvented and adding the extra parts, provided the package includes quality components such as the RWC bypass, Honeywell zone valves, Grundfos pump, Danfoss controls etc.

Your builder is correct....the cylinder is designed to operate with a heat only boiler and just requires the addition of a safety valve.

However, if your system has been calculated to require a 28/30 Kw boiler then it's possible the supplied expansion vessel would be of insufficient size so you would require an additional vessel. Vaillant boilers (and many other manufacturers models) have considerable resistance through their heat exchangers. Again it's quite possible that the supplied pump will be insufficient. The unit appears to come with a Danfoss TP9000 programable thermostat/DHW clock...are you happy with that?


A system boiler contains an expansion vessel, safety valve and pump. They would be used with a standard unvented cylinder but you would need to add the zone valves for the heating system. Some manufacturers eg. Worcester allow you to add their diverter kit to the boiler to save external valves. Also note than many system boilers have insufficiently sized vessels and pumps so again additional vessels and pumps may need to be added.

IMHO the larger output system boilers are pointless for that reason. I also prefer to have the vessel, safety valve, pump, gauge separate from the boiler....you are not tied to the manufacturers own parts and availability when they fail and they can be sized correctly.

My preference for a boiler either heat only or system would be the Worcester CDi Classic models...based on previous reliabilty, lack of any issues, easy parts availability, excellent manufacturer backup.

I would also question the size of boiler mentioned. A Victorian terrace house unless 3 storeys would surely suffice with a much smaller boiler. It is also possible the hot water could be setup as a priority system allowing say 20 Kw for quick reheating of the cylinder. Then 20Kw or a little more may be sufficent for the heating too leading to a more efficient system.

Gasguru..thanks for the detailed reply. I'll check out the worcester boiler on your recommendation.

Just to confirm that I got you right. You see nothing wrong with the santon systemfit and you would use the Greenstar 30CDi Classic Regular?

The house is an old victorian terrace with 10' ceiling height and a large open plan loft space. So maybe the boiler size isn't far away?

I would like some kind of control like an intelligent room control or a weather compensating control.

Thanks again
 
You need to find a good installer that is familiar with heatloss/pipe/radiator/boiler sizing/controls etc :)

There is nothing really wrong with the SystemFit provided the components are suitable for the size of system and boiler. That's why you need a knowledgable installer.

"The house is an old victorian terrace with 10' ceiling height and a large open plan loft space"

Means nothing :) as I said the heatloss needs calculating/estimating.

Intelligent room control? TRV's on most rads, room stat (maybe programmable) in main areas/hallway dependent on layout. Weather comp...starting to get into areas that most installers won't understand :)
 
You can't do that (IIRC) with the Worcester Classic.

Intergas 18OV, Atag A200 or indeed a Bunny of some sort should be plenty and all capable of compensated heating when installed by someone who knows their controls wiring.

As has been told already, builder's plumbers are invariably hopeless unless they are charging the normal rate for an independent job.

We do work with one regularly, but he has little or no input in the system other than the requirements of the customer.... which can be a very misguided from too much googleering.

I wouldn't choose a system fit partially because Santon are part of Heatre and they are on my boycot list. Also because the controls are not that good, otherwise GG has covered most of the bases regards the limitation of the components.
 
The SystemFit appears to use a quality pump/zone valves etc.

Manufacturers boilers and controls are constantly evolving....

The Worcester CDi system boiler combined with their own diverter kit and Greenstore cylinder can provide a weather comp system when used with the FW100 controller.

Atag and Intergas are fine but the backup and spares are hopeless.

Vaillant and Worcester the best choices.
 
vitodens 200 or even a 222 which is a System fit cylinder, complete with boiler, gets my vote.

great weather comp control too
 
I'm with Dan. While the Santon unit looks great & they're well fabricated, they leak - everywhere!! I did one site with them & when they fabricated them they just don't tighten the fitting correctly, why I don't know. 150 houses & half a shift for a Plumber; draining down the cylinder & CH, fixing SEVERAL leaks, filling up & testing again. Their disclaimer; a label ' fitting may come loose in transit!'!!.......A nightmare!!!

Sorry, but I don't rate Worcester Tupperware Bosch either, they're overpriced, old technology & full of plastic.
 
I'm with Dan. While the Santon unit looks great & they're well fabricated, they leak - everywhere!! I did one site with them & when they fabricated them they just don't tighten the fitting correctly, why I don't know. 150 houses & half a shift for a Plumber; draining down the cylinder & CH, fixing SEVERAL leaks, filling up & testing again. Their disclaimer; a label ' fitting may come loose in transit!'!!.......A nightmare!!!

Sorry, but I don't rate Worcester Tupperware Bosch either, they're overpriced, old technology & full of plastic.

What setup would you recommend? I haven't done anything yet on heating so I appreciate all the help and advice.
 

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