when is a porch not a porch?

[Thermo]

Ok so i know if certain conditions are met, planning permission is not needed, but if a porch is divided into two to allow part of it to be used as a toilet, is that still a porch?

 

[noseall]

As far as p.p is concerned then it is still a building whether it be controlled or not.

Some porches need p.p. but do not require b.c.

 

[spongobongo]

The definition of a porch is an extension attached to a dwelling in front of any external door. If it exceeds the PD tolerance of 3sqm and exceeds 3m in height, then it's no longer a porch. It then becomes just an extension for which planning permission is required.

What you put inside a porch (or even an extension) when built is irrelevant because internal works do not constitute development. And if it isn't development, it doesn't require planning permission.

EDIT: So the answer to your query is that you can put a bog in there without needing planning permission.

 

[Thermo]

cheers chaps, just wanted to see if it came under the permitted develpoment with regards p.p as it will be under 3m2. Looking at the portal, it would seem to satisfy the exemptions of building control and planning permission, providing the external door remains in place. Presumably though i would need to get approval for the drainage element of a toilet attached. If so would this need just a building notice application?

Going to phone council over next few days, but it came to me as a flash of inspiration tonight and i stupidly opened my mouth to mrs T, who now wants it done!

 

[hotrod]

Presumably though i would need to get approval for the drainage element of a toilet attached. If so would this need just a building notice application?

Hi Thermo, yeah you could do this on Building Notice - no problem. Don't forget LABC will also want provision of mechanical extraction with it being a W/C, so give this some thought and jot something to that effect on the form.

 

[Thermo]

will it need extraction if there is an opening widnow?

 

[Richard C]

Yes; 6 litres/sec but even the smallest fans will meet that.

I'd be interested to hear how your LABC reacts to this porch/loo

 

[Blagard]

The definition of a porch is an extension attached to a dwelling in front of any external door.

What you put inside a porch (or even an extension) when built is irrelevant because internal works do not constitute development. And if it isn't development, it doesn't require planning permission.

EDIT: So the answer to your query is that you can put a bog in there without needing planning permission.

From
The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted
Development) (Amendment) (No. 2) (England) Order 2008
Permitted development

D. The erection or construction of a porch outside any external door of a dwellinghouse.

If it is not a porch within the meaning of the act it is not a porch and therefore not a permitted development.

I don't see where this describes it as an extension.

The logic of a Porch with a WC is in my opinion, not a permitted development, but it is interesting to argue at what point can you do something other with the porch, bearing in mind it is outside the external door and therefore is it really inside and available to further develope

 

[noseall]

Claim that it's an outside loo. Stick one of them old fashioned doors on it with a hole in it.

 

[Blagard]

Claim that it's an outside loo. Stick one of them old fashioned doors on it with a hole in it.

A moon crescent of course

 

[Thermo]

The definition of a porch is an extension attached to a dwelling in front of any external door.

What you put inside a porch (or even an extension) when built is irrelevant because internal works do not constitute development. And if it isn't development, it doesn't require planning permission.

EDIT: So the answer to your query is that you can put a bog in there without needing planning permission.

From
The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted
Development) (Amendment) (No. 2) (England) Order 2008
Permitted development

D. The erection or construction of a porch outside any external door of a dwellinghouse.

If it is not a porch within the meaning of the act it is not a porch and therefore not a permitted development.

I don't see where this describes it as an extension.

The logic of a Porch with a WC is in my opinion, not a permitted development, but it is interesting to argue at what point can you do something other with the porch, bearing in mind it is outside the external door and therefore is it really inside and available to further develope

ill let you know what they say!

 

[Richard C]

ill let you know what they say!

Yes please do; I can follow some of the logic but I got me doubts

 

[spongobongo]

If it is not a porch within the meaning of the act it is not a porch and therefore not a permitted development.

I don't see where this describes it as an extension.

That's because the 2008 Order doesn't define what a porch is, other than telling you that a PD porch measures no more than 3sqm in floor area and no more than 3m in height. But you can't have freestanding porch, nor can you install a porch on anything other than a dwellinghouse without requiring permission. By definition, therefore, a PD porch has to be an extension to a dwellinghouse.

If you're looking for a definition of a porch within the Town and Country Planning Act 1990, you're in for a long search because it's not there. So all of this boils down to interpretation - for example, does a porch need to have a door? The Order doesn't say. Can it have open sides or do they need to be solid? Again, the Order doesn't say. Can a porch have three solid walls and no means of access from the outside? Sounds ridiculous but you can interpret the Order as allowing such a structure. That's why planners make good decisions and (me included) some shockers.

The logic of a Porch with a WC is in my opinion, not a permitted development, but it is interesting to argue at what point can you do something other with the porch, bearing in mind it is outside the external door and therefore is it really inside and available to further develope

Take two identical houses and build identical porches on both of them. Then put a WC in one of them. At what point has development occurred? Both houses would still look identical. Remember the definition of development is a building operation that materially affects the external appearance of the building.

This installation of toilet in a porch is no different to any other internal alteration within a building which, under Section 55(a) of the Act, is excluded from the definition of development.

Thermo, I stand by my original response. You can put your bog in there without requiring planning permission.

 

[Blagard]

This is from one local authority site http://www.corby.gov.uk/EnvironmentAndPlanning/BuildingControl/Pages/ExemptWorks.aspx Reproduced below by copy/paste Whilst this is there Building Control Department, I seriously doubt they would consider a different definition for the Planning dept.

Porches
By definition a porch is a space which covers either a front or back door. If the space contains anything else,(e.g. a WC), it cannot be exempt. If the original front/rear door is removed, then the new space is considered an extension and cannot be exempt. To be exempt porches must also be built at ground level and have a floor area of less than 30m²

 

[DevilDamo]

On the PP (under Planning), it doesn't mention anything about a W.C. so they consider porches to be exempt if...

1. the ground floor area (measured externally) would not exceed three square metres.
2. no part would be more than three metres above ground level (height needs to be measured in the same way as for a house extension).
3. no part of the porch would be within two metres of any boundary of the dwellinghouse and the highway.

So I'd take that as a porch containing a W.C. would be deemed as PD. I'd personally seek confirmation via the LA too... just incase.