But most socket circuits have spurs from them. We don't even know if the two sockets in question are in the same room or the same floor.
I think we are worrying too much.
I think we are worrying too much.
Why this extra wire?
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Even if you were there doing what the OP has done, with three conductors only each of the sockets, they are obviously spurs on a ring or a radial.
In either case the MCB could be 32A and would not be unexpected even with 1.5, 2.5 or 4mm² conductors.
If you decided to investigate to make sure they were not spurs off spurs, that would be a completely separate matter.
In either case the MCB could be 32A and would not be unexpected even with 1.5, 2.5 or 4mm² conductors.
If you decided to investigate to make sure they were not spurs off spurs, that would be a completely separate matter.
As I've implied, I essentially agree. As I said, it's a case of thinking about possible problems without any real reason for suspecting that they exist, other than that they theoretically 'could' exist.
Kind Regards, John
Indeed (or even the end of a radial) - and, in any of those cases, they could be perfectly compliant.
In principle, yes - obviously depending upon details.
It would. If one engages a mechanic to change the brake pads on one's car, does one also expect him to inspect and test the entirety of the braking system, and maybe also the steering and suspension - any of which could influence the in-service performance of the new pads? To do a full vehicle inspection (or EICR) whenever any small job is done (on the car or electrical installation) would theoretically be laudable, but perhaps not realistic of 'expected'.
Kind Regards, John
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To many IFs though.
We could have two sets of wires at each socket; then start saying 'What if though...'.
IF my auntie had ******, she'd be my uncle.
We could have two sets of wires at each socket; then start saying 'What if though...'.
IF my auntie had ******, she'd be my uncle.
That is a rather strange analogy and even more strange conclusion. When I get the brake pads changed on my car I would expect the whole braking system to be checked - wouldn't you?
The whole debate seems to be taking a surreal diversion.
I repeat my view that as an electrician if I replace sockets as in this case I become responsible for those sockets. Simply replacing sockets and 'Assuming' that this leaves the circuit no more dangerous (or safe) than it was before is plain stupid since you don't know the state of the circuit before you start.
Applying your logic and given the information provided by the OP you would be happy to change one electric shower for another - and 'Assume' it is no worse than it was before - I think not.
That's not really the point.
You asked what the rating of the MCB was IF there were also only three conductors at the other socket.
I was trying to emphasise that there would be more of a concern if there were more than the three.
Were there six you may suspect that they were both on the same spur (although we don't know the location of the sockets).
With only three (one cable) at a socket it is bound to be a spur and the MCB rating has no relevance.
You asked what the rating of the MCB was IF there were also only three conductors at the other socket.
I was trying to emphasise that there would be more of a concern if there were more than the three.
Were there six you may suspect that they were both on the same spur (although we don't know the location of the sockets).
With only three (one cable) at a socket it is bound to be a spur and the MCB rating has no relevance.
Or the last point on a radial circuit. (Again, by itself no cause for concern.)
Thank you for your replies, many of which have, unfortunately, rather gone over my head.
Some clarification is obviously required, and I'll do my best.
The sockets in question are in different bedrooms of a 1970s bungalow. The system was checked last July by a qualified electrician and a certificate issued. The MCB covering both sockets is rated at 32amp, but I've no idea whether its radial or ring, nor could I confirm the diameter of the conductors. The socket without a flying earth is a room which has always been a bedroom, whereas the room in which the socket with the flying earth is situated was a garage when the property was built, but was converted into a bedroom around 1986 by the previous owners.
Since posting my question I've had a look in my DIY book (yes, really) in the section marked "replacing socket outlets."
It advises thus:
"Short lengths of cable are sometimes found running from the earth terminal on the socket outlet to a terminal inside the metal box. This does no harm and the leads can be left in place--but its is not necessary to provide them on your new wiring, provided the metal box has at least one fixed lug for attaching the faceplate. However, flying earths are necessary if the earth connection is provided by a metal conduit or sheath system." Well, I don't know whether mine is, or isn't, but I do know that the spark updated the earth system last year.
Incidentally when fitting the convertor I reconnected this flying earth lead.
Some clarification is obviously required, and I'll do my best.
The sockets in question are in different bedrooms of a 1970s bungalow. The system was checked last July by a qualified electrician and a certificate issued. The MCB covering both sockets is rated at 32amp, but I've no idea whether its radial or ring, nor could I confirm the diameter of the conductors. The socket without a flying earth is a room which has always been a bedroom, whereas the room in which the socket with the flying earth is situated was a garage when the property was built, but was converted into a bedroom around 1986 by the previous owners.
Since posting my question I've had a look in my DIY book (yes, really) in the section marked "replacing socket outlets."
It advises thus:
"Short lengths of cable are sometimes found running from the earth terminal on the socket outlet to a terminal inside the metal box. This does no harm and the leads can be left in place--but its is not necessary to provide them on your new wiring, provided the metal box has at least one fixed lug for attaching the faceplate. However, flying earths are necessary if the earth connection is provided by a metal conduit or sheath system." Well, I don't know whether mine is, or isn't, but I do know that the spark updated the earth system last year.
Incidentally when fitting the convertor I reconnected this flying earth lead.
Exactly, although I cannot knock riveralt's viewpoint. In an 'ideal' world, I suppose one would undertake an EICR every time one got anywhere near an electrical installation (hence, 'take the opportunity' whenever one did any work, no matter how minor, on the installation), since there is always the possibility that there might be something to find.
Kind Regards, John
I would personally suggest that you don't worry too much about the diversions.
Good - since that appears to correspond directly with the advice you have been given here. Some will always connect an earth lead to the back box, some not - so there's no telling why you have both arrangements - maybe different electricians in the past?
Kind Regards, John
Not if I hadn't asked for it - only a functional test of the braking system as a whole. In particular, somewhat in analogy with what we're talking about here, I would not expect them to check that some DIYer had not installed under-sized hydraulic pipes, filled the system with unsuitable fluid, tampered with control systems (like ABS), bypassed warning/safety systems etc. etc.
As I said before, I empathise with your viewpoint and personally would do (or not do) the same things as you. Whilst I would not be happy to do those things myself (when replacing either sockets or {same power} shower), I would be happy to tell a DIYer that, if they did that ('competently'), they will not have made anything any 'worse' or less safe than it was before - probably adding that, "as always" (even in the absence of any work being done), there could be no guarantee that there were no pre-existing 'unsafe' aspects of the installation which might be picked up by an electrician.
Kind Regards, John
John:
Aye, maybe different electricians. I suspect that the garage conversion was completed by an occasional "jobber" rather than a builder, because some of the brickwork around the window to the front elevation lacks the professional touch. Or maybe it was just a bad professional builder.
My main purpose for posting the question was to identify this mystery lead and take advice as to what I should do with it, if anything. That has been achieved.
Thanks again.
Aye, maybe different electricians. I suspect that the garage conversion was completed by an occasional "jobber" rather than a builder, because some of the brickwork around the window to the front elevation lacks the professional touch. Or maybe it was just a bad professional builder.
My main purpose for posting the question was to identify this mystery lead and take advice as to what I should do with it, if anything. That has been achieved.
Thanks again.
Indeed. Although individuals vary in their practices, it would seem odd and unlikley that the same person would deal with two sockets differently.
You're welcome. As has been said, you actual (very simple) question was answered early on. The rest of the discussion related to well-intentioned efforts to give you additional advice, but it may not have meant too much to you.
Kind Regards, John
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