Wiring reroute

[whereismyhammer]

Unfortunately I may have to reroute and extend a number of 1.5 and 2.5 electrical cables. The cables are under floor boards so will be inaccessible when moved.

I plan to cut the cables one at a time so there is no danger of mixing them up and connect the extra length of wire using permanent Wago or Ideal connectors at both ends. The connectors will be held in plastic boxes and the wire clipped to the joists at entry to the boxes

The wires will be threaded through holes drilled in the centre of the joists.

If the work has to go ahead, Is this the correct processes?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[blup]

Unfortunately I may have to reroute and extend a number of 1.5 and 2.5 electrical cables. The cables are under floor boards so will be inaccessible when moved.

I plan to cut the cables one at a time so there is no danger of mixing them up and connect the extra length of wire using permanent Wago or Ideal connectors at both ends. The connectors will be held in plastic boxes and the wire clipped to the joists at entry to the boxes

The wires will be threaded through holes drilled in the centre of the joists.

If the work has to go ahead, Is this the correct processes?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

If the floor boards will be covered by carpets or laminate after the work, would be deemed inaccessible, and mf fittings are appropriate as you plan. If its just a length of screwed down floorboard arguably accessible, and conventional jb’s could be used. Do you know about safe isolation and are you confident you can identify the cables with the circuits in question? Also look up the rules about drilling in joists.

 

[Murdochcat]

Why do you need to do this?

A screwed down floorboard is not accessible.

Does your consumer unit have RCD protection?

 

[blup]

Accessible is a question of judgement for the installer as it isn't defined. Breaking into a final finish is a sensible starting point but if a sparky only has to unscrew a single floorboard to break into a ring or reposition a light fitting, that is a judgement that can reasonably go either way. There are reports of mf fittings failing so the OP could, if practical extend the whole cable from an existing socket or light fitting. What say you @JohnW2

 

[whereismyhammer]

Thanks for your replies. Good for safe isolation and can identify the cables with the circuits; just wanted confirmation of my plan. All work will follow standards to the letter (unlike work done by previous electricians. Notching joists, lego connection blocks covered with insulation tape)

I was deliberately using mf fittings as I thought the connections would be classed as inaccessible. However, a good point. If I screw down the floorboards the jb's could be classed as accessible. A conventional JB cover still has to be unscrewed. I will still use mf's as they are easier to fil!

Thanks all.

 

[blup]

Thanks for your replies. Good for safe isolation and can identify the cables with the circuits; just wanted confirmation of my plan. All work will follow standards to the letter (unlike work done by previous electricians. Notching joists, lego connection blocks covered with insulation tape)

I was deliberately using mf fittings as I thought the connections would be classed as inaccessible. However, a good point. If I screw down the floorboards the jb's could be classed as accessible. A conventional JB cover still has to be unscrewed. I will still use mf's as they are easier to fil!

Thanks all.

The jb is not fully mf unless it is zip tied afaik

 

[JohnW2]

Accessible is a question of judgement for the installer as it isn't defined. Breaking into a final finish is a sensible starting point but if a sparky only has to unscrew a single floorboard to break into a ring or reposition a light fitting, that is a judgement that can reasonably go either way. There are reports of mf fittings failing so the OP could, if practical extend the whole cable from an existing socket or light fitting. What say you @JohnW2

I can but repeat what you've said, that it has been left as a matter of judgement/discretion, which is not really very satisfactory.

It's probably next-to-impossible to produce a comprehensive definition of 'accessible', but if applicability of a regulation depends upon a decision as to whether something is 'accessible', then there surely ought to at least be some guidance in relation to that decision.

It's perhaps worth remembering that what we are actually talking about is "accessible for inspection and testing" so we should perhaps be thinking in terms of how far an EICR inspector would go in 'gaining access'. I would suspect that, even if a floorboard were 'loose'(not screwed or nailed), few,if any, inspectors would lift, say, a carpet, to gain access to something - and, in any event, how would he/she know that that there was something there to 'access'? Perhaps even more to the point, how likely is it that an inspector would open, to inspect and test' a JB even if it were 'in full view'??

Thee regulation is undoubtedly well-intentioned, but I'm not sure that it is particularly 'realistic'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

The jb is not fully mf unless it is zip tied afaik

That's where rules and regulations get silly, and hence get a bad name,perhaps making it likely that they will be ignored) ....

If a JB is truly 'inaccessible' (in the everyday sense') then what on earth difference does it make whether or not it can be opened without cutting a cable tie?

Kind Regards,John

 

[ebee]

Well that zip tie comment is a new one on me. What the heck would would such a thing make a difference to?
Yes the accessible statement is not clear. How accessible Easy/ Fairly Easy/ Difficult/Very difficult ???
Everything is accessible with a a sledge hammer or a hand grenade

 

[JohnW2]

Well that zip tie comment is a new one on me. What the heck would would such a thing make a difference to?

Quite,as I said, it can't possibly makes any difference to anything if the JB is 'not 'accessible', anyway!

Mind you, maybe it's a more general comment that's been made (but still silly for something 'not accessible'). Even if it were 'accessible', something like a WagoBox (without a cable tie) might not be regarded as 'acceptable', since it could be opened 'without the use of a tool'#?

Yes the accessible statement is not clear. How accessible Easy/ Fairly Easy/ Difficult/Very difficult ???Everything is accessible with a a sledge hammer or a hand grenade

Exactly. That's why at least some guidelines are really required.

However, as I said, a sensible approach would perhaps be to attempt to decide whether something was 'accessible enough' for an EICR inspector to try to 'inspect and test' it (if they knew that there was something to look for!) - and I suspect that the answer is that the majority of such inspectors would not usually 'go looking for things' which were not immediately visible without any disruption to the property?

Kind Regards, John

 

[blup]

That's where rules and regulations get silly, and hence get a bad name,perhaps making it likely that they will be ignored) ....

If a JB is truly 'inaccessible' (in the everyday sense') then what on earth difference does it make whether or not it can be opened without cutting a cable tie?

Kind Regards,John

If there is any doubt as to whether a screwed down floorboard, loose or screwed down is accessible, zip tying puts it beyond doubt as it it is wago that has to be inaccessible

 

[Murdochcat]

Accessible is a question of judgement for the installer as it isn't defined. Breaking into a final finish is a sensible starting point but if a sparky only has to unscrew a single floorboard to break into a ring or reposition a light fitting, that is a judgement that can reasonably go either way. There are reports of mf fittings failing so the OP could, if practical extend the whole cable from an existing socket or light fitting. What say you @JohnW2

So it’s hidden under a screwed down floorboard under a fitted carpet?

Not accessible in my books

Played hunt the hidden junction boxes under floorboards recently.

Carpets up, floorboards laid after wiring, so absolutely no evidence of where they would be ……3 bedrooms up routed, landing uprooted and 4 junction boxes revealed. Hugely disruptive to the home owners BUT they were accepting of the situation. Sure this was a pre 1970 build but no muppet conceals anything like that these days

 

[JohnW2]

If there is any doubt as to whether a screwed down floorboard, loose or screwed down is accessible, zip tying puts it beyond doubt as it it is wago that has to be inaccessible

I think two totally different issues are probably getting confused.

If it is conceivable that thee box could be regarded as 'accessible' then, yes, the requirements for 'protection against electric shock' would require that the box could not be opened 'without use of a key or tool' (416.2.4) - but that has got nothing to so with 'MF' or otherwise.

On the other hand, whether or a joint qualifies as 'MF' does not depend upon whether an enclosure (if there is one) containing the joint can bee opened 'without use of a key or tool'. Crimped or soldered joints are acceptable as 'MF', even if they are not enclosed in any sort of enclosure at all.

In terms of common sense, it therefore can't really be true that:

The jb is not fully mf unless it is zip tied afaik

...no matter what the manufacturers might say

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Not accessible in my books

That's the point/problem - since no two people making the decision will have exactly the same 'books'.

It's really a bit ridiculous that, even if a comprehensive definition is impractical, there is not at least some guidance as to what we should regard as 'accessible' - otherwise countless electricians with slightly different 'books' will make different decisions.

 

[blup]

So it’s hidden under a screwed down floorboard under a fitted carpet?

Not accessible in my books

Played hunt the hidden junction boxes under floorboards recently.

Carpets up, floorboards laid after wiring, so absolutely no evidence of where they would be ……3 bedrooms up routed, landing uprooted and 4 junction boxes revealed. Hugely disruptive to the home owners BUT they were accepting of the situation. Sure this was a pre 1970 build but no muppet conceals anything like that these days

No, under a single floorboard which is screed down, no carpets, plenty of houses like that still, maybe a loose rug in the centre.