Should we tolerate or allow bad/abusive behavior in public?

[RogueHanger]

What I've seen of Norcon's posts on religion, he is a deeply religious person.
Similarly, what I've seen of his comments against ethnic minorities (I can't honestly say, he's commented on the subject, it has been more comments against the minorities), he's been vehemently racially abusive.

Now how, and I've asked him on several occasions, his religious conviction sits with his racial opinions, I have no idea.

I'd like him to explain.
No explanantion leaves us to formulate our own assumptions.

 

[RogueHanger]

So going back to my example of someone being verbally harrased in public, for no reason of their own, you would walk away and put it down to free speech?

If I could walk away, yes I probably would.

Only if I were trapped in a confined space might I say something.

The other option is stick your oar in and get knifed.

Slim chance of rogue risking a knifing despite his verbose!

A couple of points here that I'd like to come back on:
First of all to Ss, if you witnessed an innocent person, through no fault of their own, say a blind person, being verbally harrased in public, you would walk away in fear of personal violence against yourself.
Sorry, for me that is unacceptable, as is the original verbal abuse. However, I would respect your decision, but I could not and would not behave similarly. I could not live with my conscience if I failed to defend the victim of abuse.

And to Norcon, you are suggesting that those who verbally abuse others are violent bullies. Is that your assertion?
Irrespective of the risk, I could not ignore the scenario illustrated above.
Maybe you could. How does that equate with your religious convictions?

 

[RogueHanger]

who can tame the tongue.....

Very interesting post.

It shows the power of words.

Look at how desensitised some people here are to some words because they were used freely when younger.

Derogatory words are the first step to demeaning people, and this in turn is a necessary step towards dehumanising them. Conflicts and persecution all over the world have shown this element.

Why do some people intentionally want to insult others? I think it is doubly demeaning, as it lowers the worth of the bully as well as the victim. In the same way that thoughtless profligate swearing often demonstrates a lack of vocabulary as well as intellect.

As I read in an article recently 'PC is just another name for manners'.

This doesn't mean a proscribed list of words , just a bit of awareness and courtesy.

Unless the hate controls your tongue rather than your brain.....

I absolutely agree with you, micilin.
But I think, sometimes it is necessary to "go in with all guns blazing", so to speak, especially in an atmsophere such as GD on DIYnot, where, IMO, overt institutionalised racism has been allowed to ferment and blossom.

It reminds me of times, during my career, when I've taken over one, of a chain of outlets, and I've had to stamp out, unacceptable even illegal practices. I've been successful because I started the way I intended to go on.
Other 'managers' have commented on my actions and in hindsight they have admitted that they'd tried a softly, softly incremental approach and been much less successful.

So I don't apologise for my behaviour because I think the receipients deserved the insults that I used.
However, I do admire and respect your restraint.
Of course, it would be pleasant in an ideal world to be able to use reasoned argument to put one's view, but sadly, there will always be those that resort to insulting and abusive behaviour and IMO, it is sometimes necessary to "fight fire with fire".
So, I agree, it is not really acceptable, but unfortunately, sometimes necessary.

 

[RogueHanger]

I didn't take that Norcon was quite doing that Micilin, but that it is just a name; a stupid tag which reveals more about the perpetrators than the victim.

During my own childhood and growing up into an adult I had insults ranging from tramp, (because I was poor), foureyes, stupid, slap-head...

Why should a racist taunt hurt more or less or be any less stupid than the taunts I had?

Neither are right or fair and the indoctrination you speak of could just as easily be directed towards children forced and brainwashed to go to Church. How much blood has been spilt in the name of all the hypocritical religions? Why single one issue out above all others like that is a bigger or the biggest problem?

So let's eliminate racism along with religions. I know someone will be along soon to say I'm comparing apples with oranges, so let me disagree here now. TO ME they are all disgusting, but they are also all here to stay...

I will disagree on one aspect, all and any abusive behaviour is unacceptable. It's based on ignorance which in turn breeds prejudice.
I can't honestly say that all and any religious behaviour is unacceptable, only the indoctrination and violence brought about by that religious indoctrination. So most religious fundamentalism is wrong, of any religion, but that does not aplly to all religious practices.
For example, confession, mass, religious weddings, baptisms, memorial services, etc are all pretty hamless and important in our lives. Additionally, there are many charitable works done in the name of religion.
I agree there also many barbaric religious practices which should be stamped out. But you can't condemn all religion for the minority of abusive religious practices. You can, and should condemn all abusive practices, racial and others, because they serve no positive purpose in society.
Religion does serve a positive purpose in society, albeit sometimes a negative purpose also.

I also disagree vehemently with you when you suggest that unacceptable practices are here to stay. Based on your assertion we'd still be hunting witches or suffering the Spanich inquisition.
Or there'd be no point in discrimination laws.

 

[RogueHanger]

During my own childhood and growing up into an adult I had insults ranging from tramp, (because I was poor), foureyes, stupid, slap-head...

Why should a racist taunt hurt more or less or be any less stupid than the taunts I had?

You raise a very good point, BT.

I've often wondered why personal insults are acceptable (in law), yet racist comments are not.

Doesn't sound very fair to me.

To clear up one point, again.
Racism is not illegal. It's unacceptable, but not illegal. You can practice your racism, and I, for one don't care, if you do it in private.
It's unacceptable to practice it in public, as is pornography.

Social media is one fom of a public arena. Yet it is more permanent than, say, a conversation in a bar.

However, discrimination is illegal and you cannot practise it in public, or in private, without breaking the law.

 

[RogueHanger]

I think the verbal(posting) and gratuitous abuse on GD in: name calling, personal attacks, username changes purely to insult and degrade another poster, thinly veiled threats, twisting of a valid argument, refusing to give credit on a point well made or ignoring it, intimidation or being slapped-down like a bully, ad-hominem, staw man* - I could go on but I've seen it all here on GD...

It's very ambiguous (again) as to who your comments are directed, BT.
Care to be a little more precise?
I'll respond to the rest of your post in due couse.

 

[JBR]

During my own childhood and growing up into an adult I had insults ranging from tramp, (because I was poor), foureyes, stupid, slap-head...

Why should a racist taunt hurt more or less or be any less stupid than the taunts I had?

You raise a very good point, BT.

I've often wondered why personal insults are acceptable (in law), yet racist comments are not.

Doesn't sound very fair to me.

It's a crazy world; I had to have a talk with my son when he referred to a lad who had been bullying him as a "Polish tw4t", a perfect description given that he was Polish and a tw4t but I had to tell my son he could call him a tw4t but not a Polish one as it was racist. I had a conversation with a Polish girl in work about it and she said it was racist and she would be deeply offended, personally if I was called an English t0sser then the only remotely offensive aspect for me is the t0sser bit... hurts my head to think about it, I'm not sure what's right and what's wrong half the time so keeping kids in order is a minefield.

If someone (not indigenous English) called me an English t0sser, do you think it would be worthwhile my telling the police?

 

[Brigadier]

I also disagree vehemently with you when you suggest that unacceptable practices are here to stay.

I don't agree with this RH, purely because:

- what is considered unacceptable is constantly evolving, and
- people live for a prolonged period of time, and therefore many will reach an equilibrium in their behaviour, and not change from then until their passing.

Latter point being evidenced by "embarrassing granny's racist outbursts"-type situations - that they see nothing wrong in their behaviour is that it may have been the accepted norm at the point in their lives at which their personal code was cemented.

OK, we ought to be reaching a point of diminishing returns as it were - by which I mean that the general standard of social behaviour should have risen to a point where we do not need root-and-branch revision, merely polishing - but I don't see "unacceptable practice" ever being eradicated.

 

[Big Tone]

It's very ambiguous (again) as to who your comments are directed, BT.
Care to be a little more precise?

Not really, but I will say that despite what you may think, it is at anyone and everyone for whom the cap fits. If they don’t recognise it themselves then there’s little merit in pointing it out. As I keep saying, if or when you win your little battle here, you won't have changed the person or what they think; just what they are allowed to say. (Self-appointed moderator).

With respect, for an intelligent guy there are some fundamental laws of human nature you do not appear to understand. E.g. Although I think Micilin has the same view as your good self, he is the honey which attracts flies more than your vinegar. When you restrict what people are allowed to say, as their own opinion, (be it right or wrong!), it builds resentment and enmity. That’s why I said I dread your replies but welcome Micilin’s more impartial and balanced approach.

The underlying theme you will get from me is freedom of speech 1st, other issues 2nd, if you haven't noticed. Twisting and straw-manning it to insinuate that I approve of an ‘anything goes’ policy is not what I have said. That’s why I find it difficult to engage with you anymore.

I say you can switch a TV station over if you don’t like it or not watch a thread. You turn it into I want to be able to jerk-off in public. Not excatly, but that’s how it always goes with you; twisting a valid point. Micilin, by contrast, doesn’t do that $h1t!

 

[RogueHanger]

If someone (not indigenous English) called me an English t0sser, do you think it would be worthwhile my telling the police?

I keep repeating, JBR, racism is not illegal.
Obviously if that racism accompanies the threat of violence, etc, it does become illegal.
Calling someone insulting names, per se, is not illegal, but it is unacceptable in a modern civilised society.

I've been criticised many times, notably by Brigadier and BT for using insults in these threads, yet they are so slow, or fail completely, to criticise others who use racially abusive insults.

 

[Brigadier]

I've been criticised many times, notably by Brigadier and BT for using insults in these threads, yet they are so slow, or fail completely, to criticise others who use racially abusive insults.

I criticised your hypocrisy RH ("I do not accept abusive practice"), not the abusiveness in itself.

 

[RogueHanger]

It's very ambiguous (again) as to who your comments are directed, BT.
Care to be a little more precise?

Not really, but I will say that despite what you may think, it is at anyone and everyone for whom the cap fits. If they don’t recognise it themselves then there’s little merit in pointing it out.

Where were you, then when the racially abusive insults were flowing like there was no tomorrow?
Will you criticise the racially abusive insults in the future?
Or will you limit your crticism to those that do object to abusive behaviour?

As I keep saying, if or when you win your little battle here, you won't have changed the person or what they think; just what they are allowed to say. (Self-appointed moderator).

It's not my battle. It's an acknowledged unacceptable practice (by the few) in society that needs to be eradicated.
I have said racism is not illegal, like pornography, you can practise it to your heart's content, in private, not in public.

With respect, for an intelligent guy there are some fundamental laws of human nature you do not appear to understand. When you restrict what people are allowed to say, as their own opinion, (be it right or wrong!), it builds resentment and enmity.

Racism, like pornography, is not aceptable in public.

The underlying theme you will get from me is freedom of speech 1st, other issues 2nd, if you haven't noticed.

Similarly, I have a right to free speech, and if you don't like it, hard luck. I have a right.
But you do have a habit of telling me that my right is boring, repetitive, mud-slinging, racially povocative, etc, whereas you have failed time and time again to criticise racially abusive comments.

Twisting and straw-manning it to insinuate that I approve of an ‘anything goes’ policy is not what I have said. That’s why I find it difficult to engage with you anymore.

I am not the one making ambiguous and imprecise accusations.
I'm certainly not presenting strawman arguments.
How is condemning abusive behaviour twisitng and straw-manning?
Some examples, perhaps?
I suspect you don't wish to engage with me anymore is because you have been exposed as a prejudiced hypochrite.

I say you can switch a TV station over if you don’t like it or not watch a thread. You turn it into I want to be able to jerk-off in public. Not excatly, but that’s how it always goes with you; twisting a valid point.

TV, magazines, live shows, etc have warnings, deadlines, hoops to jump through, etc. GD forum has no such warnings. The racially abusive comments are there for all to read, be offended by and worst of all, educate our children into what is acceptable on social media.
Now if that is your idea of responsible behaviour in society, (a) I don't share your idea of responsibility, (b) I'm sure glad you're not in a responsible position in society, and (c) probably goes a long way to explaining why you're not in a position to be a model of responsibility in society.

 

[Big Tone]

I'll make this real simple for you.

Who do you think you are to come on here and start telling others what their remit should be?

I don’t think you see just how arrogant you really are. Barging into the Church of DIYnot and preaching your word of your God.

 

[RogueHanger]

I've been criticised many times, notably by Brigadier and BT for using insults in these threads, yet they are so slow, or fail completely, to criticise others who use racially abusive insults.

I criticised your hypocrisy RH ("I do not accept abusive practice"), not the abusiveness in itself.

Cor that's a bit neither here nor there, init?
OK, I accept I'm a hypochrite for using insults at those that repeatedly make racially abusive comments.
I did accept that before, and I did point out that I agreed with you that two wrongs don't make a right.
My insulting behaviour does not negate the original racially abusive behaviour.

So you don't object to me criticising those that make racially abusive comments?
Careful now, I have a good memory and DIYnot has a reasonable search facility.

 

[RogueHanger]

I'll make this real simple for you.

Who do you think you are to come on here and start telling others what their remit should be?

I don’t think you see just how arrogant you really are. Barging into the Church of DIYnot and preaching your word of your God.

Just how hypochritical are you?
Taking so much umbrage against me for criticising racially abusive comments, when you completely failed to criticise those racially abusive posters.
You've never been so busy as since I've been criticising racially abusive comments, yet I've failed to find one post of yours that criticises racially abusive comments.

How arrogant are you that you've decided that racially abusive comments should be allowed, whereas cricisms of those comments are not allowed.

For the record, again, racially abusive comments in public are not acceptable, by all decent standards.

Are you suggesting that I am out of order for attempting to set some standards of decency in the Church of DIYnot?
Why, is the Chuch of DIYnot some sort of KKK chapter where standards of decency should not be allowed?