You have no problem in being abusive yourself, to posters on here, RH - you justify it to yourself by "they started it - I respond in kind."
You really need to "walk the walk", as you have put it, elsewhere on these boards.
You have no problem in being abusive yourself, to posters on here, RH - you justify it to yourself by "they started it - I respond in kind."
You really need to "walk the walk", as you have put it, elsewhere on these boards.
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You will often find that the ones who preach tolerance are often the least tolerant of people.
B
Big Tone
I just saw that I said "air" instead of "err". No good being daft if I don't prove it once in a while 
(Thought I'd get in before anyone else did).
I was going to come onto tolerance later Brigs and how if you are truly tolerant then you should show more restraint and be 'the bigger person' I would have thought.
He's certainly said some nasty things to me, repeatedly Doesn't that amount to precisely what the OP is about? Seems the same as my mum slapping me, as a kid, to teach me it's wrong to slap other kids. (Not that she ever had to
)
(Thought I'd get in before anyone else did).
I was going to come onto tolerance later Brigs and how if you are truly tolerant then you should show more restraint and be 'the bigger person' I would have thought.
He's certainly said some nasty things to me, repeatedly
Doesn't that amount to precisely what the OP is about? Seems the same as my mum slapping me, as a kid, to teach me it's wrong to slap other kids. (Not that she ever had to
R
RogueHanger
What a **** I was just nearing the end of my response and I hit shift+backspace or cntrl+backspace and the whole lot went. So now I'll start again.
I'll deal with your points one at a time 'cos to try and deal with them all together would be a bit too idealistic.
I don't think it's idealistic to expect others to behave properly in polite company. I think we should expect others to behave properly and object if they don't. (I'm aware of the accusations against me about using insults etc and I'll deal with them in due course)
That would be a fair comment if we were discussing sport, politics even reiligion. But we're talking about behaving properly in public.
If you witnessed a group verbally harrasing a defenceless person, would you put it down to free speech?
I don't think it is the same as porn at all. Some are no doubt as offended or even more offended by porn. But porn also has its critics.
However, if someone created, behaved or even watched porn in public, in an way that could offend others, I'm sure the law would deal with them harshly.
Suppose someone was behaving pornographically in front of your children, would you object in the strongest fashion?
So going back to my example of someone being verbally harrased in public, for no reason of their own, you would walk away and put it down to free speech?
Sometimes, you have to make a decision about the limits of behaviour that you are prepared to accept.
I've many times pointed out to others that there is freedom, but within defined, acceptable limits.
Sometimes personal limits correspond to public acceptability. Racism is defintely one of those.
To do nothing sometimes is to silently condone bad behaviour.
I agree, with children, sometimes it's better to ignore bad behaviour, but are we talking about children's bad behaviour here?
What is it they say about the worst decision, something like: "indecision is the worst decision."
Sorry, I need an upgrade of flashmovie to watch it and I don't want that upgrade. I haven't seen the film.But meanwhile, just a quick litmus test for you Rogue, let me ask you something if I may. I know it’s fiction and light-hearted, but would you prefer or approve of something like this?
“John Spartan you are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute”.?
Did you see the movie?
If you witness bad behaviour in public and stand up to it, you often realise the depth of feeling that others had, in common with your own. But sadly, all too often, no-one does object until one person takes the lead.You might be the 1 person who is offended amongst 100 of which 50 are not and the remaining 49 are indifferent. So why, in such a case, pander to the 1's desire? Now there's a slipery-slope trap if ever there was..
Now about the accusations against me for using insulting behaviour.
I accept those accusations as true, unfortunately.
I don't apologise for that behaviour because I think it was deserved and in retalliation.
I also accept Brigadiers comment, and perhaps others, when he said two wrongs don't make a right.
Absolutely. When I use insulting comments at others it does not correct, amend, negate or excuse their original bad behaviour.
I wish I had the grace and fortitude to reason with others on here without resorting to insults, but I don't, and I've only seen one poster on here who can. I have a great deal of respect for that poster.
I wished I could emulate him, ( assuming it is a him.)
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If it's just the bad (often foul) language issued frequently by the youth of today, then I don't think you can realistically stop it. If you try to stop it, some bright spark, is going to claim he's a "Rapper" and your stifling his "artistic freedom" to express himself.
We should positively promote it within allocated areas
What a **** I was just nearing the end of my response and I hit shift+backspace or cntrl+backspace and the whole lot went. So now I'll start again.
I'll deal with your points one at a time 'cos to try and deal with them all together would be a bit too idealistic.
I don't think it's idealistic to expect others to behave properly in polite company. I think we should expect others to behave properly and object if they don't. (I'm aware of the accusations against me about using insults etc and I'll deal with them in due course)
That would be a fair comment if we were discussing sport, politics even reiligion. But we're talking about behaving properly in public.
If you witnessed a group verbally harrasing a defenceless person, would you put it down to free speech?
I don't think it is the same as porn at all. Some are no doubt as offended or even more offended by porn. But porn also has its critics.
However, if someone created, behaved or even watched porn in public, in an way that could offend others, I'm sure the law would deal with them harshly.
Suppose someone was behaving pornographically in front of your children, would you object in the strongest fashion?
So going back to my example of someone being verbally harrased in public, for no reason of their own, you would walk away and put it down to free speech?
Sometimes, you have to make a decision about the limits of behaviour that you are prepared to accept.
I've many times pointed out to others that there is freedom, but within defined, acceptable limits.
Sometimes personal limits correspond to public acceptability. Racism is defintely one of those.
To do nothing sometimes is to silently condone bad behaviour.
I agree, with children, sometimes it's better to ignore bad behaviour, but are we talking about children's bad behaviour here?
What is it they say about the worst decision, something like: "indecision is the worst decision."
Sorry, I need an upgrade of flashmovie to watch it and I don't want that upgrade. I haven't seen the film.But meanwhile, just a quick litmus test for you Rogue, let me ask you something if I may. I know it’s fiction and light-hearted, but would you prefer or approve of something like this?
“John Spartan you are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute”.?
Did you see the movie?
If you witness bad behaviour in public and stand up to it, you often realise the depth of feeling that others had, in common with your own. But sadly, all too often, no-one does object until one person takes the lead.You might be the 1 person who is offended amongst 100 of which 50 are not and the remaining 49 are indifferent. So why, in such a case, pander to the 1's desire? Now there's a slipery-slope trap if ever there was..
Now about the accusations against me for using insulting behaviour.
I accept those accusations as true, unfortunately.
I don't apologise for that behaviour because I think it was deserved and in retalliation.
I also accept Brigadiers comment, and perhaps others, when he said two wrongs don't make a right.
Absolutely. When I use insulting comments at others it does not correct, amend, negate or excuse their original bad behaviour.
I wish I had the grace and fortitude to reason with others on here without resorting to insults, but I don't, and I've only seen one poster on here who can. I have a great deal of respect for that poster.
I wished I could emulate him, ( assuming it is a him.)
Hurling great chunks of rock again I see from inside your glass house.
B
Big Tone
Got a busy night tonight and tomorrow is looking ridiculous all day. So will re-dock asap. BTW I did see the error of my way in a later post. (More haste less speed)...
R
RogueHanger
That's fine, BT, 'cos I also want to get on, so I'm happy to go slower.
As there's no other comments worth responding to, I'll hang fire.
Although I do recognise Jockscott's contribution which has already been discussed as part of BT's and others'.
who can tame the tongue
James 3
The Message (MSG)
When You Open Your Mouth
3 1-2 Don’t be in any rush to become a teacher, my friends. Teaching is highly responsible work. Teachers are held to the strictest standards. And none of us is perfectly qualified. We get it wrong nearly every time we open our mouths. If you could find someone whose speech was perfectly true, you’d have a perfect person, in perfect control of life.
3-5 A bit in the mouth of a horse controls the whole horse. A small rudder on a huge ship in the hands of a skilled captain sets a course in the face of the strongest winds. A word out of your mouth may seem of no account, but it can accomplish nearly anything—or destroy it!
5-6 It only takes a spark, remember, to set off a forest fire. A careless or wrongly placed word out of your mouth can do that. By our speech we can ruin the world, turn harmony to chaos, throw mud on a reputation, send the whole world up in smoke and go up in smoke with it, smoke right from the pit of hell.
7-10 This is scary: You can tame a tiger, but you can’t tame a tongue—it’s never been done. The tongue runs wild, a wanton killer. With our tongues we bless God our Father; with the same tongues we curse the very men and women he made in his image. Curses and blessings out of the same mouth!
10-12 My friends, this can’t go on. A spring doesn’t gush fresh water one day and brackish the next, does it? Apple trees don’t bear strawberries, do they? Raspberry bushes don’t bear apples, do they? You’re not going to dip into a polluted mud hole and get a cup of clear, cool water, are you?
James 3
The Message (MSG)
When You Open Your Mouth
3 1-2 Don’t be in any rush to become a teacher, my friends. Teaching is highly responsible work. Teachers are held to the strictest standards. And none of us is perfectly qualified. We get it wrong nearly every time we open our mouths. If you could find someone whose speech was perfectly true, you’d have a perfect person, in perfect control of life.
3-5 A bit in the mouth of a horse controls the whole horse. A small rudder on a huge ship in the hands of a skilled captain sets a course in the face of the strongest winds. A word out of your mouth may seem of no account, but it can accomplish nearly anything—or destroy it!
5-6 It only takes a spark, remember, to set off a forest fire. A careless or wrongly placed word out of your mouth can do that. By our speech we can ruin the world, turn harmony to chaos, throw mud on a reputation, send the whole world up in smoke and go up in smoke with it, smoke right from the pit of hell.
7-10 This is scary: You can tame a tiger, but you can’t tame a tongue—it’s never been done. The tongue runs wild, a wanton killer. With our tongues we bless God our Father; with the same tongues we curse the very men and women he made in his image. Curses and blessings out of the same mouth!
10-12 My friends, this can’t go on. A spring doesn’t gush fresh water one day and brackish the next, does it? Apple trees don’t bear strawberries, do they? Raspberry bushes don’t bear apples, do they? You’re not going to dip into a polluted mud hole and get a cup of clear, cool water, are you?
B
Big Tone
I’m on a break, so just time for a quickie and sorry, but I can’t pick each and every point up yet...
I like that ta B&B. All I would say there is, the tongue just verbalises what the brain is thinking; quite often just a snapshot which may change over time. Cutting off his tongue doesn’t change his brain; or heart. (Someone said that before ). So to prohibit ‘the tongue’ on some matters, as RH would like, you are not actually changing a person, just censoring him from saying what he really thinks. Is that what everyone really wants, for everyone? Carfeul what you wish for now..
What you are hiding there Rogue, and asking for, is mind control. If you got your way, and I’m not saying your agenda isn’t a sincere one, that’s about as scary as anything gets! Because then, who or what trusted Body, with that kind of autonomy, gets to set the rules? You? A democratically elected Party the like of which, (liars and cheats), we have had time and time again?
That, in a nutshell, is why although it pains me to say it we need free-speech even if it offends some. I don’t like it anymore than you do, I expect. But that is where tolerance comes into it. Any overtly racists here I take with a pinch of salt.
Examples of “public” porn or swinging my nob in front of a girls face in “public” is neither what I said or suggested, or comparing like-for-like when it comes to a forum or on TV. So you have taken a big leap from what I was saying.
When talking about peoples’ right to air their views, (got me air right this time ), you have to take the sweet with the sour I think. The other thing I don’t think you have touched on is whether racism goes for both black and white, as-in if the N word is offensive as an absolute then why should Blacks be able to use it with impunity?
E.g. Have you heard of an American popular group called NWA and do you know what it stands for? Do you object to their use of it? (Relates to what Jockscott said). How about RAP, the sort I’m talking about permeates the world now more than any forum I know of and I find it vile, sexist, vulgar and more..
This “where do you daw the line” as I said, means something different to many people. Gotta go, I'm late. Could probably have said something better - vroom... (Some quickie that was sorry )
I like that ta B&B. All I would say there is, the tongue just verbalises what the brain is thinking; quite often just a snapshot which may change over time. Cutting off his tongue doesn’t change his brain; or heart. (Someone said that before
). So to prohibit ‘the tongue’ on some matters, as RH would like, you are not actually changing a person, just censoring him from saying what he really thinks. Is that what everyone really wants, for everyone? Carfeul what you wish for now..What you are hiding there Rogue, and asking for, is mind control. If you got your way, and I’m not saying your agenda isn’t a sincere one, that’s about as scary as anything gets! Because then, who or what trusted Body, with that kind of autonomy, gets to set the rules? You? A democratically elected Party the like of which, (liars and cheats), we have had time and time again?
That, in a nutshell, is why although it pains me to say it we need free-speech even if it offends some. I don’t like it anymore than you do, I expect. But that is where tolerance comes into it. Any overtly racists here I take with a pinch of salt.
Examples of “public” porn or swinging my nob in front of a girls face in “public” is neither what I said or suggested, or comparing like-for-like when it comes to a forum or on TV. So you have taken a big leap from what I was saying.
When talking about peoples’ right to air their views, (got me air right this time
), you have to take the sweet with the sour I think. The other thing I don’t think you have touched on is whether racism goes for both black and white, as-in if the N word is offensive as an absolute then why should Blacks be able to use it with impunity?E.g. Have you heard of an American popular group called NWA and do you know what it stands for? Do you object to their use of it? (Relates to what Jockscott said). How about RAP, the sort I’m talking about permeates the world now more than any forum I know of and I find it vile, sexist, vulgar and more..
This “where do you daw the line” as I said, means something different to many people. Gotta go, I'm late. Could probably have said something better - vroom... (Some quickie that was sorry
)
R
RogueHanger
Okay, if it's alright for some to use racially abusive language on this forum, then it's similarly acceptable for me to argue against and ridicule those racially abusive posters.I’m on a break, so just time for a quickie and sorry, but I can’t pick each and every point up yet...
I like that ta B&B. All I would say there is, the tongue just verbalises what the brain is thinking; quite often just a snapshot which may change over time. Cutting off his tongue doesn’t change his brain; or heart. (Someone said that before
But that would just end up as a silly slanging forum. Is that what we really want?
Apart fom that, racially abusive language is objectional in any public or social media arena. Or would you say that it is OK to verbally abuse others in public?
Therefore, anyone who disagrees with my constant objections needs to either put up with it, as you expect others to put up with racially abusive comments, or justify why I should not object.
Sorry, BT. I think you've gone beyond a sensible discussion.
As I said, racially abusive comments, as are any other verbal abusive behaviours, are objectional in any public arena. If people want to spout off to themselves or others in private, that's OK.
Their mind is no-one else's business. It's just public behaviour which should be acceptable and decent.
Yet you object and argue against anyone complaining, ridiculing or arguing with those that make racially abusive comments.
Why do you not take those with a pinch of salt?
You made the comparison and I did not agree with your comparison.
I thought there was a big difference. I only presented that scenario to demonstrate how you would find that kind of behaviour offensive.
So you'll have to put up with my arguing with racially abusive posters. You do not criticise those posters, but you criticise me.When talking about peoples’ right to air their views, (got me air right this time
We've dealt with this before, in the lesbian context. If you're in the circle, yourself, it's acceptable. If you were in prison, it would be perfectly acceptable to call another inmate a criminal. But I don't think it would be acceptable if either of the two were not both in prison.
Not heard of it, but I assume that we've just dealt with it as above, i.e. acceptable between those in the same circle.
Even art has to conform to acceptability. I'm not aware of any RAP that uses racially abusive language. Even when such words, or art, are used they still cause offence. I suppose there are some artists who offend intentionally.
For example, Aubrey Beardsley is still considered to be pornographic.
I will accept that art does evolve, but, some comments, or art, always will be offensive.
If I witness offensive behaviour, and I object, it's pretty obvious that the perpetrator, either, does not find it offensive, or is doing it intentionally to offend.
If they are not finding it offensive they will probably apologise and stop, as I did.
However, and this is where, and why, I think there are racially abusive comments on GD forum, is because they want to intentionally offend.
It's absolutely obvious who they want to offend.
That is surely more objectional than any accidental faux pas.
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If I could walk away, yes I probably would.
Only if I were trapped in a confined space might I say something.
Very interesting post.
It shows the power of words.
Look at how desensitised some people here are to some words because they were used freely when younger.
Derogatory words are the first step to demeaning people, and this in turn is a necessary step towards dehumanising them. Conflicts and persecution all over the world have shown this element.
Why do some people intentionally want to insult others? I think it is doubly demeaning, as it lowers the worth of the bully as well as the victim. In the same way that thoughtless profligate swearing often demonstrates a lack of vocabulary as well as intellect.
As I read in an article recently 'PC is just another name for manners'.
This doesn't mean a proscribed list of words , just a bit of awareness and courtesy.
Unless the hate controls your tongue rather than your brain.....
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