CU change pricing?

Still - silver lining and all that - you'll all be able to stock up on MCBs and RCDs at bargain basement prices once the sheds start their fire sales (pun intended) of fully loaded plastic CUs later this year..... :mrgreen:

Anybody know who makes Q-Max punches? Might buy some shares.....
 
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And are they only making metal ones because it is impossible to make plastic ones which comply, (and if so what standard can they not comply with?), or are they only making metal ones because of the invalid wording in BS 7671 ...
I'm certainly surprised that there hasn't been a lot more fuss about this. I don't think one can really blame the manufacturers (other than for their involvement in JPEL/64). One imagines that the main reason they are not making plastic ones is because the wording of BS7671 (and the absence of relevant definitions) means that it is impossible for them to know whether or not it is possible to make plastic ones which would comply, hence it also would be impossible for them to give any guarantees that any plastic product they manufactured was compliant. No-one in their right mind would, next year, install a CU which the manufacturer could only say "might" then comply with BS7671.

In contrast to the extreme lack of clarity about everything else, Amd 3 is crystal clear in saying that, in this context, ferrous metals are deemed to be acceptable as 'non-combustible' materials - so the only way manufacturers can be sure of producing compliant products is to make their CUs out of that; we probably won't even see ones made of non-ferrous metals, since there would be 'uncertainty' even about those.

Kind Regards, John
 
Anybody know who makes Q-Max punches? Might buy some shares.....
You remind me that, somewhere, I presumably must still have my set of (Imperial) Q-Max punches that I once used extensively for making holes for valve holders! I have a vague recollection that the most-used ones were ⅝" (I think for B7G holders), ¾" (B9A) and 1⅛" (octal etc.) - but I'm talking many decades ago, so my memory may well be very faulty!

Kind Regards, John
 
Does this mean we will see the end of chint and the like?

Or will they still sell plastic ? And be even cheaper in comparison ?
 
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I understand there are at least 2 manufacturers claiming that they have a non-metallic CU, that complies to amendment 3.
 
It depends on what "non combustible" means. It seems it's meaning has not been defined in the ammendment.

Under some conditions some types of wood are defined as non combustible, they scorch but do not burn, in other conditions the same type of wood is considered as flamable. Much depends on the thickness, air flow and temperature as to whether a material is flammable.

There are many plastics which will not burn unless they are in a flow of very hot air. Even then the plastic is not supporting it's own combustion but is being scorched and the residue abraded away by the air flow. Stop the air flow and the scorching stops.

Then there are plastics which can be lit with a match and will actively burn, obviously no one with any ethics or scruples (*) would use that sort of plastic for a CU.

(*) some manufacturers who have no regard for the safety of the end user will use inflammable plastics.

Maybe the ammendment need to be ammended to take account of the use of non inflamable non ferrous materials.

I agree that the heat from an electrical fault inside the CU will make the selection of the plastic difficult. One suggestion would be the material that is used for the cases of decent quality MCBs, RCDs and main switches. There is also the consideration that a sustained source of heat from an electric fault inside a steel CU will make the steel case very hot and this heat, conducted through the steel, could affect the insulation on the incoming meter tails leading to a short between live meter tail and earth steel case. Ceramic grommets anyone. ?
 
There are plastics that will not set alight, fire alarm equipment has been made from them for years.
A sounder\stobe has to be made from non combustible materials so it keeps sounding\flashing when the fire is around it, it's not a problem.
I cannot see Cu enclosures being made of plastic being a problem, someone is just not using the correct materials if they burn.
There are standards for what is considered combustible & the length of time it will smolder for etc.
 
It depends on what "non combustible" means. It seems it's meaning has not been defined in the ammendment.
Indeed, that's essentially the problem. Even more confusing, it says that that CUs should comply with BS EN 61439-3 and shall have enclosures manufactured of non-combustible material. Given that my understanding is that BS EN 61439-3 contains at least some 'combustible' tests(s) (e.g. the 'hot wire' test) it is therefore not clear whether they are saying that they require a degree of non-combustibility (although, as BAS would point out, NON-combustibility can't really have 'degrees'!) over and above that required by the Standard, or whether they are saying that compliance with BS EN 6149-3 is adequate (the "and shall..." words therefore being redundant). All they say is that ferrous metal is "deemed to be an example of a non-combustible material".

As I wrote yesterday, under those circumstances one cannot really blame manufacturers for not producing any plastic ones, since there is no way that they could be sure as to whether or not they were compliant with the new regulation - so very few people would be happy to install any plastic CU come next year.

It really is ridiculous - and there really ought to be some way to 'put pressure on' IET, BSI or JPE/64 to clarify what their regulation actually requires.

Like many others, I'm also sceptical about the whole concept this new regulation, and wonder if it may not result in more, not less, death/injury, particularly amongst 'DIYers', if its interpretation results in a widespread change to metal CUs. However, we are undoubtedly 'stuck with it' - so the least we can ask for is to be told what it actually means (and I won't bother about an "IMO" there - since what I'm saying seems self-evident!). Once we (and the manufacturers) know the answer to that, I feel sure that it ought to be possible for manufacturers to produce compliant non-metal CUs - which is probably what most people would prefer.

Kind Regards, John
 
Absolutely John, we and the manufacturers need some clarity on the IET's definition of non-combustible materials.

As you rightly said, wood if treated correctly can be non-combustible!
 
Absolutely John, we and the manufacturers need some clarity on the IET's definition of non-combustible materials. As you rightly said, wood if treated correctly can be non-combustible!
Indeed - and I would have imagined that, for example, many thermosetting plastics would probably be satisfactory (sounds like turning the clock back 60+ years!), even if rather brittle and hence difficult to work with.

It's rather surprising that the manufacturers have allowed this situation to arise (and/or haven't 'demanded' clarification), since I think that some of the major ones will have been represented on JPEL/64, and all of them were obviously free to participate in the consultation process on the Amendment. Maybe the current confusion somehow suits their own agenda - i.e. for some reason, they prefer a change to metal rather than to some other plastic?

Kind Regards, John
 
What a load of drivel and pontificating about this hijacked post.
For those who are required to fit new Consumer Units - they will fit what's available and 'meets the new standard' - if Wylex say its okay then so be it - I don't have the time or inclination to worry what the definition of combustible is or is not and whether customers will prefer plastic consumer units, metal or even ceramic ones.
Most working sparks won't give a toss about the above arguments particularly as everyone knows that the new 'solution' does not solve the undermining cause of the
problem that of substandard cable connections - it simply seeks to contains it.
Far better if those with the knowledge and forethought found a way to ensure that substandard cable connections cannot happen.
 
For those who are required to fit new Consumer Units - they will fit what's available and 'meets the new standard' - if Wylex say its okay then so be it
If one of the manufacturers states that their plastic CU is non-combustible will you believe them?

I don't have the time or inclination to worry what the definition of combustible is or is not and whether customers will prefer plastic consumer units, metal or even ceramic ones.
Conscientious caring attitude.

Most working sparks won't give a toss about the above arguments
Ok.

particularly as everyone knows that the new 'solution' does not solve the undermining cause of the
problem that of substandard cable connections - it simply seeks to contains it.
So, you have thought about it and are pontificating.

Far better if those with the knowledge and forethought found a way to ensure that substandard cable connections cannot happen.
Agreed.

So, the stated solution is not satisfactory and should be improved - hence the discussion which you have entered.

:)
 
I think sparks will care when the materials cost more and it takes longer to install. And consumers decline the CU replacement estimate and continue with their fuses.
 
What a load of drivel and pontificating about this hijacked post. For those who are required to fit new Consumer Units - they will fit what's available and 'meets the new standard' - if Wylex say its okay then so be it - I don't have the time or inclination to worry what the definition of combustible is or is not and whether customers will prefer plastic consumer units, metal or even ceramic ones.
It's obviously your prerogative not to be concerned about these issues, but I think many people find the situation very unsatisfactory - in that a very poorly worded regulation is currently seriously limiting what manufacturers can produce and claim to be compliant. Unless some official clarification is obtained, I doubt that any manufacturer would be prepared to gamble with producing, or that (come next year) any electrician would be prepared to gamble with installing, an allegedly-compliant CU made out of anything other than ferrous metal.
Most working sparks won't give a toss about the above arguments particularly as everyone knows that the new 'solution' does not solve the undermining cause of the problem that of substandard cable connections - it simply seeks to contains it. Far better if those with the knowledge and forethought found a way to ensure that substandard cable connections cannot happen.
Exactly - not to mention the possible increase in risk of electrocution (particularly for 'DIYers') if the result of the reg is to cause a widespread change to metal CUs. My understanding is that JPEL/64 probably allowed itself (seemingly had little choice, in view of 'threats') to be bullied by the Fire Service (or, one or two members thereof) into introducing this new regulation - which, as you say, does nothing to address the underlying problem. Indeed, I'm far from convinced that a lot of the fires cited by the Fire Service necessarily originated in (rather than 'came to involve) CUs, anyway.

Kind Regards, John
 
It depends on what "non combustible" means. It seems it's meaning has not been defined in the ammendment.
That's because there is not, and can not be, any meaning.

As they do not qualify "non-combustible" in any way, e.g "at less than x°C", they are requiring something which simply does not burn. And there is nothing you can make a CU out of which will not, ever, under any circumstances burn. Steel? Ever seen a thermal lance? Steel will burn, so with no qualification to "non-combustible" a steel CU will not comply.

Under some conditions some types of wood are defined as non combustible, they scorch but do not burn, in other conditions the same type of wood is considered as flamable. Much depends on the thickness, air flow and temperature as to whether a material is flammable.
And, I'm sure, the composition of the atmosphere it's in. Some substances will self ignite in an oxygen-rich one. Some substances contain their own oxidising agent and will burn in a vacuum, or under water.

"Non-combustible" is non-achievable, and frankly I am disgusted that a group with a scientific/engineering remit should have written what they did, and for me their entire credibility has taken a massive blow.


Ceramic grommets anyone. ?
I'm sure you can make ceramics burn if you try hard enough, therefore they are not non-combustible.
 

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