Final Message

[Himaginn]

I do think immigrants are straining our resources especially housing. But as I said, most are not Muslims. So why the obsession with Muslims?

I understand that it's the non-immigrants that are putting the greater strain on housing in London, the absentee foreign buyers.

 

[blightymam]

Actually, who's site is it. The moderators are just that - moderators. Maybe we should ask for the sites owners to stand up and show themselves and see what they've got to say.

Moderators should not dictate what can be discussed unless it's obviously offensive; they should direct a thread to the right area, but that should be the end of it.

I agree.... and anyway most forums such as this have this kind of spiel : "The opinions expressed on this board are not necessarily those of.." to try and protect themselves.

Folk can be offensive, deliberately provocative and vulgar. That's freedom of speech, like it or not. But I am also free to protest against it as long as it was all within the law and done peacefully. What's that famous quote? "I do not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it" or whatever. I do not believe in curtailing the views of anyone even if it is something I do not wish to hear - if we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we do not like, then we don't believe in those freedoms at all.

Another problem is one person level of offensive is different to another but I do believe in self-censorship. It's so easy to offend someone just for the 'fun' of it, but why do people want to do that? Most of the time we wouldn't do that to their face. Seems that with the age of the keyboard warrior this is all too easy to do and it's a sad yet fascinating part of this new online culture.

 

[fender]

What I find on here sometimes though, is that any criticism of refugees / immigrants / Muslims and some will brand you racist.

Perhaps we ought to restrict ourselves to a discussion about refugees/immigrants/Muslims rather than criticising them.
Just suppose France was doing dental work for free, or vastly reduced prices, would you take advantage of that? How many do a booze cruise to stock up on booze and fags? How many do not buy duty-free? You can't blame individuals for exploiting the lower cost options in life. It's called sensible purchasing, surely.
If you disagree with the results, complain about the system, not those taking advantage of the opportunities.

With ref to your post though, are you really telling me that the recent mass immigration will not strain resources?

A debatable point, but only if/when it's debated without recourse to abuse and twisted statistics or youtube videos.

Also, why is it a problem to not wish your culture to be diluted?

I don't see that as a problem. But the end result does not justify the means.
I personally accept that the world turns and nowt we do will stop it. Sometimes the new is better than the old.

Serious question.
If millions of Europeans turned up in Islamic countries to the point where Islam was being pushed to one side and becoming a minority / diluting their culture, do you think they'd be happy about it?

Islam is different. It's not just a religion to be practised on a Sunday. It pervades all parts of society.
I'm not suggesting it should, or that any other religion ought to. In fact I'm agnostic.

A sensible well thought out reply - thank you.

 

[Himaginn]

I do think immigrants are straining our resources especially housing. But as I said, most are not Muslims. So why the obsession with Muslims?

Where did I blame Muslims?

He said "obsession" not blame.

 

[fender]

I do think immigrants are straining our resources especially housing. But as I said, most are not Muslims. So why the obsession with Muslims?

Where did I blame Muslims?

He said "obsession" not blame.

Thank you for the correction.......

 

[fender]

I do think immigrants are straining our resources especially housing. But as I said, most are not Muslims. So why the obsession with Muslims?

I understand that it's the non-immigrants that are putting the greater strain on housing in London, the absentee foreign buyers.

When it comes to London - yes, I think you're quite right.

 

[Himaginn]

But you've made it quite obvious you have a serious dislike for Poles / Eastern Europeans.
Pot / kettle

Similarly, he's complained about individual eastern Europeans, but he doesn't brand all of them as anti-social.
He's expressed his displeasure with a few but it doesn't cloud his judgement with future acquaintances.....well it might, but he doesn't post his prejudice multiple times on social media.

 

[fender]

But you've made it quite obvious you have a serious dislike for Poles / Eastern Europeans.
Pot / kettle

Similarly, he's complained about individual eastern Europeans, but he doesn't brand all of them as anti-social.
He's expressed his displeasure with a few but it doesn't cloud his judgement with future acquaintances.....well it might, but he doesn't post his prejudice multiple times on social media.

As I don't let recent events cloud my judgement with any Muslims I meet in the future. You can't assume they are all the same.

Are we going around in circles yet?

 

[JohnD]

Fender won't tell us what he thinks an Apologist is. I think it might be a person who says "well, Franco might have overthrown the democratically elected government and murdered millions of political opponents, but, as Fascists go, he wasn't too bad, so I think you have to say he was a reasonable bloke." So an Apologist is IMO a person who tries to excuse a person who has done wrong.

However the RWRs like to use the word to describe people who say "Yes, Franco was a murdering thug, but only about half the Spanish supported his most violent acts, reducing over time, and when he died, King Juan Carlos managed to escape his lifetime of indoctrination and restore democracy, so you can't claim that all Spaniards are murdering Fascists." So the RWRs use the word to describe a person who speaks out against "tarring all with the same brush" and "guilt by association."

 

[fender]

Fender won't tell us what he thinks an Apologist is. I think it might be a person who says "well, Franco might have overthrown the democratically elected government and murdered millions of political opponents, but, as Fascists go, he wasn't too bad, so I think you have to say he was a reasonable bloke." So an Apologist is IMO a person who tries to excuse a person who has done wrong.

However the RWRs like to use the word to describe people who say "Yes, Franco was a murdering thug, but only about half the Spanish supported his most violent acts, reducing over time, and when he died, King Juan Carlos managed to escape his lifetime of indoctrination and restore democracy, so you can't claim that all Spaniards are murdering Fascists." So the RWRs use the word to describe a person who speaks out against "tarring all with the same brush" and "guilt by association."

Thanks for that JD, but no matter what you may think, I'm not a RWR.
Not that I care what you think anyway......

 

[WalksWithTurkeys]

I do think immigrants are straining our resources especially housing. But as I said, most are not Muslims. So why the obsession with Muslims?

I understand that it's the non-immigrants that are putting the greater strain on housing in London, the absentee foreign buyers.

They are pushing up the high end, but there is huge demand for housing, and immigrants are a not insignificant cause of house price inflation. When 300,000 arrive, net, and house building is maybe half that, the shortage will get worse. House prices in Spain for example are far far lower.

 

[JohnD]

Thanks for that JD, but no matter what you may think, I'm not a RWR.
Not that I care what you think anyway......

And I'm not an Apologist.

etc.

What I find on here sometimes though, is that any criticism of RWRs and some will brand you Apologist.

WWT,

Some on here may think you have an agenda to push, like left wing apologists...

 

[Himaginn]

As I don't let recent events cloud my judgement with any Muslims I meet in the future. You can't assume they are all the same.

Are we going around in circles yet?

You can do what you are most comfortable with.
However, if you (no accusation there, just an example) were to post multiple (I mean hundreds) of anti-whatever-prejudice-you-have, messages on social media, you can hardly be surprised when it stirs up a storm of anti-anti-whatever-prejudice-you-have.
Then the forum deteriorates into arguments and counter-arguments, interspersed with some abuse and becomes boring and repetitive..............

I would suggest: if you value any organisation, treat the forums sensibly and the posters with respect and don't exploit them for personal agenda. (No accusations)

 

[fender]

Thanks for that JD, but no matter what you may think, I'm not a RWR.
Not that I care what you think anyway......

And I'm not an Apologist.

etc.

What I find on here sometimes though, is that any criticism of RWRs and some will brand you Apologist.

WWT,

Some on here may think you have an agenda to push, like left wing apologists...

Ok JD,

Truce,

Maybe you are not an apologist and you're being taken the wrong way. It's easily done on a forum.
But I also don't think that all of the posters you and others refer to (myself included) are RWR's either.

 

[fender]

As I don't let recent events cloud my judgement with any Muslims I meet in the future. You can't assume they are all the same.

Are we going around in circles yet?

You can do what you are most comfortable with.
However, if you (no accusation there, just an example) were to post multiple (I mean hundreds) of anti-whatever-prejudice-you-have, messages on social media, you can hardly be surprised when it stirs up a storm of anti-anti-whatever-prejudice-you-have.
Then the forum deteriorates into arguments and counter-arguments, interspersed with some abuse and becomes boring and repetitive..............

I would suggest: if you value any organisation, treat the forums sensibly and the posters with respect and don't exploit them for personal agenda. (No accusations)

Then we all have to treat each other with respect.
Maybe discuss issues and lose the accusations (both ways) of being either an "apologist" or "RWR" ?

And while we're about it - lose the sarcasm. Can we do it?